Crescent Star

[Guest_Ben_*]

When Amtrak proposed the Crescent Star between Meridian and Dallas/Ft. Worth, how was the ridership forecast? Would the route be well-patronized if it ran today? It would connect Dallas/Ft. Worth with Atlanta, Charlotte, and the Northeast.

 

[AlanB]

I don't recall if Amtrak ever released numbers or not for that route. However, I can tell you that it was considered one of the best proposals out of the entire Network Growth Strategy.

Yes, many railfans applauded the entire NGS because it meant more trains period. But in terms of viable, revenue producing trains with low costs, the Crescent Star would have been one of the best new runs had it seen the light of day.

 

[saxman]

It would have been a good run with good ridership IMO. Having multiple connections throughout its route, including the Texas Eagle, Heartland Flyer, City of NO, plus connections in the Northeast. Texas to cities like Atlanta is a decent sized market as well as providing a one seat ride to the Northeast would have been good too. I'm pretty sure it would have started had Amtrak not gotten into its cash crunch back in 2001-2002. Not sure how ready the stations were though?

Would have been Amtrak's greatest additional train. (And no, of course I'm not biased because I live in Dallas-Fort Worth :lol: )

 

[had8ley]

IIRC, the big push on the Crescent Star was not so much pax numbers but the express business, and mail, that would be handled to Dallas. When the express went south so did the idea of the Star. It would have ruined the NOL section of the Crescent by taking the diner to Dallas.

 

[zephyr17]

IIRC, the big push on the Crescent Star was not so much pax numbers but the express business, and mail, that would be handled to Dallas. When the express went south so did the idea of the Star. It would have ruined the NOL section of the Crescent by taking the diner to Dallas.

Just like they're going to ruin the New Orleans section of the proposed daily "Sunset/Eagle" by sending the sleepers and diner to Chicago?

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Crescent Star, while a noteworthy proposal, was based on the ill-fated express-freight business that Amtrak was doing under Warrington. Only a few trains actually ran, i the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal, for instance, and they were anything but well patronized trains. The Three Rivers, lamented by many, carried a lot of express and mail and a couple of passenger cars. Unfortunately, the express and mail initiative was a failure and the trains built around it, went away, if they ever ran at all.

 

[henryj]

The best expansion idea for the Crescent is to send it west from New Orleans to Houston and San Antonio. I would be an overnight train between Houston and New Orleans and a day train between San Antonio and Houston. I would only take one more set of equipment to do that and the train already has viewliner sleepers on it. It would give San Antonio and Houston a direct train to Atlanta, the east coast, Washington, DC, Philladelphia and New York with connections to Boston. It would be more direct than the Eagle. And it would be a huge boost to ridership on the train west of Atlanta and Birmingham.

 

[AlanB]

The Crescent Star, while a noteworthy proposal, was based on the ill-fated express-freight business that Amtrak was doing under Warrington. Only a few trains actually ran, i the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal, for instance, and they were anything but well patronized trains. The Three Rivers, lamented by many, carried a lot of express and mail and a couple of passenger cars. Unfortunately, the express and mail initiative was a failure and the trains built around it, went away, if they ever ran at all.

Yes, the Crescent Star idea was born out of the Express Trak freight program and it would have indeed carried some freight. However, it still represented one of the better ideas in that Network Growth Strategy plan. It incurred minimal expenses compared to other trains, since it shared 3/ths of its route with the Crescent, and it would have served a major market.

Another train that actually did rather well for itself under that plan was the Pennsylvanian. Yes, it too carried almost as many freight cars as the Three Rivers, but despite the very poor calling times at the ends of the run, it was well patronized. Especially across Western PA and Ohio where it was the only train that served stations during daylight hours.

Even the poor 3R's wasn't exactly terrible on ridership, but it wasn't glorious.

And to some extent, the K-Card still exists too, only it's been cut back to Indianapolis and is now called the Hoosier State.

There were many other trains that never did turn a wheel, including one that actually made it into the system timetable; as well as a few that did run and then later died.

 

[AlanB]

The best expansion idea for the Crescent is to send it west from New Orleans to Houston and San Antonio. I would be an overnight train between Houston and New Orleans and a day train between San Antonio and Houston. I would only take one more set of equipment to do that and the train already has viewliner sleepers on it. It would give San Antonio and Houston a direct train to Atlanta, the east coast, Washington, DC, Philladelphia and New York with connections to Boston. It would be more direct than the Eagle. And it would be a huge boost to ridership on the train west of Atlanta and Birmingham.

Also another viable idea, although that was not part of the Network Growth Strategy.

The big problem right now is the fact that Amtrak doesn't have any Viewliners to spare for another trainset. Perhaps if/when the Viewliner order is built and in service, it might be an idea that Amtrak might consider.

Of course UP will probably want some outrageous amount of money to expand capacity on that line before they'll allow a second Amtrak train, which could of course sink the entire idea.

 

[jis]

There were many other trains that never did turn a wheel, including one that actually made it into the system timetable;

You mean the famous "Skyline Connection" of course?

 

[AlanB]

There were many other trains that never did turn a wheel, including one that actually made it into the system timetable;

You mean the famous "Skyline Connection" of course?

Yup!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Of course UP will probably want some outrageous amount of money to expand capacity on that line before they'll allow a second Amtrak train, which could of course sink the entire idea.

Alternatively, Amtrak could replace the NOL-SAS shuttle train with an extended Crescent.

 

[AlanB]

Of course UP will probably want some outrageous amount of money to expand capacity on that line before they'll allow a second Amtrak train, which could of course sink the entire idea.

Alternatively, Amtrak could replace the NOL-SAS shuttle train with an extended Crescent.

That would destroy any reasonable connection with the reworked run-through Eagle.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The big problem right now is the fact that Amtrak doesn't have any Viewliners to spare for another trainset. Perhaps if/when the Viewliner order is built and in service, it might be an idea that Amtrak might consider.

What about the prototype Viewliners?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That would destroy any reasonable connection with the reworked run-through Eagle.

That would depend on what time the run-through operates, wouldn't it?

The big problem right now is the fact that Amtrak doesn't have any Viewliners to spare for another trainset. Perhaps if/when the Viewliner order is built and in service, it might be an idea that Amtrak might consider.

What about the prototype Viewliners?

What about my dear Auntie Teacart?

 

[AlanB]

The big problem right now is the fact that Amtrak doesn't have any Viewliners to spare for another trainset. Perhaps if/when the Viewliner order is built and in service, it might be an idea that Amtrak might consider.

What about the prototype Viewliners?

The first prototype is well beyond ever being able to run again. It was partially taken apart for parts and what was left last I knew had been built into a mock-up of what Amtrak wanted for the next production run of the Viewliners. That was at least 6 years ago and I have no idea if that mock-up looks anything like what Amtrak is now looking for bids on.

The other proto-type might still be able to be brought back into service, assuming someone can find a couple hundred grand to fix everything that needs fixing, which I believe includes major AC issues (read buy new compressors), new trucks, and probably a total refurb inside.

But 1 isn't enough to make this happen.

 

[AlanB]

That would destroy any reasonable connection with the reworked run-through Eagle.

That would depend on what time the run-through operates, wouldn't it?

The run-through's schedule is really only supposed to change mainly on the LA side of San Antonio, not on the Chicago side. In fact, it can't change much on the Chicago side without breaking connections. The amount of layover time in SAS is supposed to be cut down with this plan. Currently the Eagle arrives into SAS at just before 10PM, assuming its on time. It currently leaves at 5:40 AM. Let's assume that they cut that layover time back to say 1:00 AM to provide the connecting train with some cushion.

Currently the Sunset Limited arrives into SAS at 3:00 AM and that's with what's basically a Noon departure out of New Orleans.

The Crescent pulls into NOL at 7:38 PM if on time. Let's say that they rush things and turn it by 8:00 PM for departure. Unlikely, but it make things easier.

That means that the Crescent would arrive at SAS around 11 AM.

So instead of cutting the dwell time of the Eagle, they'd have to increase the dwell time in San Antonio. Or, make all those connecting pax sit in the station until 10 PM that night.

I didn't even bother to look at things going the other way after that.

 

[henryj]

Of course UP will probably want some outrageous amount of money to expand capacity on that line before they'll allow a second Amtrak train, which could of course sink the entire idea.

Alternatively, Amtrak could replace the NOL-SAS shuttle train with an extended Crescent.

That would destroy any reasonable connection with the reworked run-through Eagle.

Since this is all hypothetical anyway, I was actually thinking of the extended Crescent as the second train on the route running opposite the Eagle/Sunset extension. That would give us two trains on the SAS to NOL route. One gives us connections to LA and the other, the Crescent, give us connections to the east. Since Houston to New Orleans is a designated HSR corridor, why not. We can just call this speculation, but there have to be some ideas generated for Amtrak to consider as they ramp up their service. If they are not going to get new equipment and study new routes and grow the business, then we might as well write them off now.

 

[AlanB]

Of course UP will probably want some outrageous amount of money to expand capacity on that line before they'll allow a second Amtrak train, which could of course sink the entire idea.

Alternatively, Amtrak could replace the NOL-SAS shuttle train with an extended Crescent.

That would destroy any reasonable connection with the reworked run-through Eagle.

Since this is all hypothetical anyway, I was actually thinking of the extended Crescent as the second train on the route running opposite the Eagle/Sunset extension. That would give us two trains on the SAS to NOL route. One gives us connections to LA and the other, the Crescent, give us connections to the east. Since Houston to New Orleans is a designated HSR corridor, why not. We can just call this speculation, but there have to be some ideas generated for Amtrak to consider as they ramp up their service. If they are not going to get new equipment and study new routes and grow the business, then we might as well write them off now.

I always thought that you were talking about a second frequency from the getgo. It would really cause ridership along that corridor to soar. One thing that we have learned for sure over the years with Amtrak is, give people more choices in terms of trains to ride, and they come out to ride them big time.

Sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon, since as I noted earlier, Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to do it.

But it is still a wonderful idea.

Frankly Amtrak should even consider marrying it with a Crescent Star, as both the southern route and the more northern route would tap large markets. As while it is slow in happening, slowly but surely more Texan's are starting to ride trains where they are available.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The Crescent pulls into NOL at 7:38 PM if on time. Let's say that they rush things and turn it by 8:00 PM for departure. Unlikely, but it make things easier.
That means that the Crescent would arrive at SAS around 11 AM.

So instead of cutting the dwell time of the Eagle, they'd have to increase the dwell time in San Antonio. Or, make all those connecting pax sit in the station until 10 PM that night.

What if you change the Crescent's schedule by 12 hours, and shift the Texas Eagle an hour later? That would solve the San Antonio connection problem, at the cost of the Crescent not having reasonable calling hours at NEC stations north of WAS.

But that does suggest that if you can figure out how to save 3-4 hours between WAS and SAS, you could make this work.

 

[AlanB]

The Crescent pulls into NOL at 7:38 PM if on time. Let's say that they rush things and turn it by 8:00 PM for departure. Unlikely, but it make things easier.
That means that the Crescent would arrive at SAS around 11 AM.

So instead of cutting the dwell time of the Eagle, they'd have to increase the dwell time in San Antonio. Or, make all those connecting pax sit in the station until 10 PM that night.

What if you change the Crescent's schedule by 12 hours, and shift the Texas Eagle an hour later? That would solve the San Antonio connection problem, at the cost of the Crescent not having reasonable calling hours at NEC stations north of WAS.

But that does suggest that if you can figure out how to save 3-4 hours between WAS and SAS, you could make this work.

That would see the Crescent leaving the largest city it serves, NY, at 2:00 AM. Not a good idea.

 

[MattW]

And it'd give its largest market, ATL-WAS, a day-train instead of an overnight train which much as I wouldn't like to admit it, better supports business travelers. Only solution there is to run two Crescents 12 hours apart which I'd love to see. It'd give the connection in Texas, and it'd give me a day-train to DC!

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

And it'd give its largest market, ATL-WAS, a day-train instead of an overnight train which much as I wouldn't like to admit it, better supports business travelers. Only solution there is to run two Crescents 12 hours apart which I'd love to see. It'd give the connection in Texas, and it'd give me a day-train to DC!

All the LD's should run 12 hr intervals, it would cut the per train cost of infrastructure and boost ridership, doubling staff and equipment would be the only downside....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But that does suggest that if you can figure out how to save 3-4 hours between WAS and SAS, you could make this work.

Obviously, we need to use batteries for this.

 

[wayman]

But that does suggest that if you can figure out how to save 3-4 hours between WAS and SAS, you could make this work.

Obviously, we need to use batteries for this.

Couldn't you just draw a few extra time-zone boundaries onto the map and adjust the timetables accordingly, so that you pick up a few extra hours?...