CL- Are the scalpers at work?

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Back in Nov we booked our mid June trip to CHI and back on the CL. We got the low bucket fares. Occasionally I check back to see if a better fare came up and as of two months ago all bedrooms were completely sold out. Just for curiosity, I checked them today and sure enough Bedrooms are available again and there was no "hurry only x rooms left" note there.

Something is fishy here. First the CL sells out then two weeks before our trip bedrooms mysteriously become available again. They are priced at the last minute $500 and $600 high bucket levels but they are available. Its looking more and more like the speculators have been at work. These unscrupulous travel operators probably know very well what they are doing to make a profit but these schemes are being done at the expense of the traveler.

I know that we discussed this quite recently but here is an example where rooms (not just one) magicaly become availabe at the last minute. Whats your take on it?
 
At the Amtrak town hall meeting this problem was brought up. Reference the Empire Builder. Per Emmett Fremaux VP of Marketing and Product Development; this should not be happen anymore. Amtrak has taken steps to stop this type of stuff.

It may be still happening, or maybe Amtrak add an sleeping car to Capital Limited consist. There are rebuilding them with all that extra Federal funds. It would be about time to see an few more cars getting add to the trains consist.
 
First off, this isn't scalping by any stretch of the imagination.

I notised the same thing happening when I was looking to book a bedroom on the CL for the honeymoon. They were sold out, and then one morning a low (or second to low) room dropped back into the inventory. I was able to snag it, and was happy that things worked out the way that they did.
 
One perspective on this topic: While attempting to book our annual trip to California from Texas this summer the CZ,as usual, consistently showed no bedrooms (SOLD OUT)available and the roomettes @ Highest or next to highest bucket! :eek:

I finally booked for the end of July since I had to co-ordinate our return which involves riding the CS/Surfliners/SWC and TE on the way home (all these trains seem to have SOLD OUT/High Bucket Sleepers! most days! :blink: )to Texas in August!

Was able to book a fairly good trip (36,000 AGR points with 10% rebate), then low and bewhold on the CZ High Bucket Bedrooms showed up on several days! ($1400+ is pricey if paying!)Rather than risk losing what we already had, I didnt attempt to rebook/cancel! I cant afford the high bucket prices myself but am fortunate enough to have the flexibility of looking for alternate days/ways to ride the rails since I am retired!

Personally Im glad to see the LD trains filling up, this might even expidite Amtrak moving faster to get rehab/repairs done and even speed up ordering new equipment, redoing routes and timetables and even starting new service!(Can anyone say Daily CHI-LAX Eagle/Sunset/CHI-FLA train!)

Naw, probably not, it's the Government! ;)
 
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It could also be normal folks taking advantage of Amtrak's fully refundable tickets. I have two sleeper trips on reserved next month to the same destination because I havn't decided when I want to go yet. I may use one, I might not go at all, but I won't be using both. It works out that I either hold these two reservations or risk not getting a sleeper at all. The way the return policy is set up I can make sure I am getting exactly what I want and shift all the risk to Amtrak and other passengers.
 
Well, whatever this is it needs to be fixed. The full refunds should come at full-fare (high bucket) rates only. If a passenger is willing to pay full-fare then you can get your money back, otherwise if you buy at a low rate you do NOT get your money back. Seems like a simple answer, which probably means it won't ever be considered. In any case I'm keeping a list of issues to express to Amtrak HQ.
 
Well, whatever this is it needs to be fixed. The full refunds should come at full-fare (high bucket) rates only. If a passenger is willing to pay full-fare then you can get your money back, otherwise if you buy at a low rate you do NOT get your money back. Seems like a simple answer, which probably means it won't ever be considered. In any case I'm keeping a list of issues to express to Amtrak HQ.
Yes, by all means, let's have Amtrak move to the excreable airline model where only full fare can get refunds when your plans change, and affordable fares are faced with enormous change fees at best or are totally non-refundable at worst. <_<
 
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I think that making the lowest-bucket fares non-refundable make a lot of business sense. Use the Southwest Airlines pricing model. The fare is non-refundable, but the value can be used toward another trip for one year with no rebooking fees.

Right now there is every reason to make multiple booking to cover various possible itineraries and little reason not to. I've done it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. That does not even factor in bulk bookings by travel agents. Tell me I can't get my money back, then I'll be more selective. Tell agents they can't get their money back for unused bookings, and they will be a lot more selective. That will make bookings easier for all of us, and will give Amtrak some assurance that sold-out trains are actually sold out, and that the revenue those bookings represent is actual revenue.
 
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If this is a problem (and I'm not necessarily convinced that it is), then surely there would be a middle point that Amtrak could move to, something between the very liberal cancellation/refund policies now and horrible policies of most (all?) airlines.
 
If this is a problem (and I'm not necessarily convinced that it is), then surely there would be a middle point that Amtrak could move to, something between the very liberal cancellation/refund policies now and horrible policies of most (all?) airlines.
Southwest has very reasonable policies. Their cheap tickets can be swapped for 100% of their value for 12 months with no change fees, but are not refundable. They also have fully refundable as well.

Most of the other airlines are horrible.
 
This is a pretty good idea, I think - a solid middle ground.

I think that making the lowest-bucket fares non-refundable make a lot of business sense. Use the Southwest Airlines pricing model. The fare is non-refundable, but the value can be used toward another trip for one year with no rebooking fees.
 
Yes, by all means, let's have Amtrak move to the excreable airline model where only full fare can get refunds when your plans change, and affordable fares are faced with enormous change fees at best or are totally non-refundable at worst. <_<
I have no problem with people being able to apply their credit to another trip, including without change fees. Since you brought up airlines what's wrong with how Southwest Airlines allows you to reapply your credit however you wish for the next year with no change fees involved? Handing all money back based only on a PROSPECTIVE customer's whim is what allows unscrupulous people to abuse Amtrak's antiquated reservation system just as the unnamed guest post explains above. I'm curious though, how would you address this issue instead?
 
I've always been told, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Now of course, from your selfish point of view, its broken. You can't get your cheap rooms anymore. Or whatever. People scalp off reasonable buckets and leave you paying high due to a lenient refund policy. Blah blah blah.

Get real. The solution to the capacity problems isn't better management of room prices. The solution is more capacity. Amtrak is running full and turning a profit (to the extent of lowering the general subsidy) on its sleepers. Until they can get more capacity with which to stop turning down passengers, this is working as well as can be expected.

Amtrak could toy around with its policies. Amtrak passengers are NOT airline passengers. They are tourists, people who are scared of flying, and people who for some reason or other have decisively concluded that they dislike the airline business model enough to spend more time enroute in order to avoid it. So if Amtrak toys with its policies, it might increase its revenue somewhat. Or it might find itself with a group of pissed-off ex-customers.

I don't like being dicked around with. It wouldn't take much of it for me to find myself a personal meeting with some Amtrak bigwig wherein I read them the riot act. I don't mind them raising their prices to some degree. Incremental increases in rapid succession to see how people react to the higher prices is an intelligent policy that I would accept. Suddenly rewriting all their policies to see if they work better isn't intelligent revenue management. Its what we call reckless stupidity.

Oh, if their trains were running empty or their sleeping cars being a drain on the company's financial statement, I could understand radical practice. But this isn't so. The only person on this board I know to have been significantly involved in the transportation industry is Transit 54.

People ride Amtrak BECAUSE they can get low prices if they book early. They ride Amtrak BECAUSE the tickets are so fully refundable. They ride Amtrak BECAUSE it is different from the way airlines operate. I'm not saying Amtrak's method is the one others should follow. I don't know. But just because someone in the transport business does it one way does not mean it is in Amtrak's best interest to copy them.

I've seen the way airlines do it. It is one of the reasons I don't use them anymore.
 
Yes, by all means, let's have Amtrak move to the excreable airline model where only full fare can get refunds when your plans change, and affordable fares are faced with enormous change fees at best or are totally non-refundable at worst. <_<
I have no problem with people being able to apply their credit to another trip, including without change fees. Since you brought up airlines what's wrong with how Southwest Airlines allows you to reapply your credit however you wish for the next year with no change fees involved? Handing all money back based only on a PROSPECTIVE customer's whim is what allows unscrupulous people to abuse Amtrak's antiquated reservation system just as the unnamed guest post explains above. I'm curious though, how would you address this issue instead?
There is no issue as far as I am concerned. I think this is blown out of all proportion, and what you are seeing is simple supply and demand pricing on a scarce commodity (finite number of sleeper accomodations on popular trains during peak travel times). "Scalping" is entirely the wrong term anyway, since all the prices involved are Amtrak's own pricing, direct from Amtrak, reflecting their yield management buckets. Scalping takes place when you buy an inflated ticket from a third party, and the provider of the service sees none of the additional profit from the inflated price.

We don't have any real facts or statistics on this in any case, just some anecdotal evidence of individuals checking the website accompanied by some pure speculation. My own speculation: it may well be that during peak travel times, Amtrak itself only assigns higher buckets to sleeping accomodations when they are released for sale, and only adjusts lower if sales are not meeting expectations. Just as they probably assign most rooms a lower bucket in mid-January, and adjust higher if demand is higher than anticipated.

I shop for fares that I deem I can afford, if the prices are too high, I either don't go or change dates. And I feel much more confident booking Amtrak travel, knowing that if my plans change, I can get my money (or a travel credit if already ticketed) back.

BTW-I have been traveling on Amtrak literally since the first day, 5/1/71. I have logged well over 100,000 miles in sleepers, mostly on the western LDs.
 
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I've always been told, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Really? What measure are you using to determine that Amtrak ain't broke? Compared to other nationwide passenger railways I've used in other industrialized countries Amtrak has a lot of fixing to be done.

Now of course, from your selfish point of view, its broken. You can't get your cheap rooms anymore. Or whatever. People scalp off reasonable buckets and leave you paying high due to a lenient refund policy. Blah blah blah.
I'm the selfish one eh? Never mind that I've never made any reservations I didn't need or use. Not to mention that the scalpers actually leave Amtrak with an unsold room because I'll simply fly instead. I enjoy Amtrak but it's already a sacrifice on my part to adjust my schedule to match up with Amtrak's meager offerings that are only routinely on-time when we're in the middle of a "Great Recession." And let's be honest, that's all we've seen them accomplish so far, even from the mouths of Amtrak employees.

Get real. The solution to the capacity problems isn't better management of room prices. The solution is more capacity.
How does more capacity address the issue of people holding two or more rooms and then dropping them when their locked into high-bucket fares? Who are these rich people who supposedly wait until the last minute to snap up every high-bucket fare? It just doesn't make any sense how Amtrak's policies are helping anyone but scalpers and whishy-washy types who can't commit to spending actual money before they travel.

Amtrak is running full and turning a profit (to the extent of lowering the general subsidy) on its sleepers. Until they can get more capacity with which to stop turning down passengers, this is working as well as can be expected.
So profit is the same thing as slightly less negative cash flow? I'm sorry but how can I take you seriously when you talk like that?

Amtrak passengers are NOT airline passengers.
So long as that remains the case Amtrak will continue to be a failure. Yes, that's right, a failure. In the US airlines are used by almost everyone. Amtrak is not. In other industrialized nations passenger rail is used by almost everyone. Amtrak is not. This needs to change if Amtrak expects to grow substantially. Otherwise whatever stimulus dollars are thrown at it will eventually be used up and Amtrak will slowly shrink back to it's former shell of a broken 1970's railway.

So if Amtrak toys with its policies, it might increase its revenue somewhat. Or it might find itself with a group of pissed-off ex-customers.
So ****-off the scalpers and refund abusers and be done with it. Why should Amtrak be beholden to a market that has nowhere else to go? I know the system I'm advocating works because the most successful airline in the country has been using it for as long as I can remember. Even in those situations when I'm buying a ticket on the next flight out I know I'm getting a reasonable fee for a last minute fare. They're happy, I'm happy, we all get what we want and nobody gets screwed. Seems fair enough to me.
 
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Really? What measure are you using to determine that Amtrak ain't broke? Compared to other nationwide passenger railways I've used in other industrialized countries Amtrak has a lot of fixing to be done.
Compared to the only comparable system in the world, VIA Rail, Amtrak is great. If you want to fund Amtrak to the point where it is competitive on more than a niche basis, go right ahead. I won't stop you. Actually, I spend a good portion of my time advocating for improved rail service, but that's neither here nor there- and completely irrelevant to Amtrak's fare policy intended to do best with the small percentage of the market interested in using them at any price.

I'm the selfish one eh? Never mind that I've never made any reservations I didn't need or use. Not to mention that the scalpers actually leave Amtrak with an unsold room because I'll simply fly instead. I enjoy Amtrak but it's already a sacrifice on my part to adjust my schedule to match up with Amtrak's meager offerings that are only routinely on-time when we're in the middle of a "Great Recession."
Amtrak doesn't lose a customer because you chose not to take them. They just happen to get someone else instead of you. Fact of the matter is, most trains are running with their sleepers sold out. Sold out is sold out. The freight operators ability to operate their trains on time or lack thereof is, like your previous comment, irrelevant.

How does more capacity address the issue of people holding two or more rooms and then dropping them when their locked into high-bucket fares? Who are these rich people who supposedly wait until the last minute to snap up every high-bucket fare? It just doesn't make any sense how Amtrak's policies are helping anyone but scalpers and wishy-washy types who can commit to spending actual money.
If Amtrak had more capcity, they wouldn't be charging these prices for their rooms, they'd be having a lot more rooms available. Furthremore, any room that goes back into inventory goes back into inventory at its original bucket price. That is, a room I pay $125 for will go back into inventory at $125, and be the next to sell. Doesn't matter if it was at $750 10 minutes before I cancelled. You can come along and pay $125 for my room.

So profit is the same thing as slightly less negative cash flow? I'm sorry but how can I take you seriously when you talk like that?
Welcome to accounting 101. Class is now in session. If one business section is making a positive cash flow, it is a profitable business. Sleepers, for Amtrak, are profitable. Coach is not. The profit generated by the sleepers offsets the loss generated by the coaches. If Amtrak were to discontinue its sleepers, its subsidy would go up, even assuming no loss in total passenger numbers.

And so long as that remains the case Amtrak will continue to be a failure. Yes, that's right, a failure. Airlines are used by almost everyone. Amtrak is not. In other industrialized nations passenger rail is used by almost everyone. Amtrak is not. This needs to change if Amtrak expects to grow substantially. Otherwise whatever stimulus dollars are thrown at it will eventually be used up and Amtrak will slowly shrink back to it's former shell of a railway.
Amtrak could build a high speed network across this country, serving all major cities at reasonable hours and with quick speeds, not to mention good frequencies. Just give them about 5 trillion bucks to build it, and about 10 billion a year in subsidies, and it will happen. Then we can talk about Amtrak carrying airline passengers. Until then, with a sense of realism, Amtrak's LD business can and should generate the best possible revenue from the limited passenger network it has to draw from- those people who are willing to spend more time on Amtrak because they can't stand the airlines.

So ****-off the scalpers and refund abusers and be done with it. Why should Amtrak be beholden to a market that has nowhere else to go? I know the system I'm advocating works because the most successful airline in the country has been using it for as long as I can remember. Even in those situations when I'm buying a ticket on the next flight out I know I'm getting a reasonable fee for a last minute fare. They're happy, I'm happy, we all get what we want and nobody gets screwed. Seems fair enough to me.
I don't scalp. So far, I have booked only one trip in my life that I haven't either taken or cancelled with at least 6 months remaining to trip time. I am so fed up with just about every airline practice, if I became king of the world, I'd find the people that came up with the policies and have them lined up against a wall and shot. Then I'd have most of the airlines equipment bulldozed into the sea, where that garbage belongs.

The airline policies are a result of a lot of collusion and a market that had nowhere else to go because they can't imagine spending more time than absolutely needed to go from point to point. They take advantage. They treat their customers like children and garbage. They ignore the fact that I am their customer and I don't have to use them. Because if I want to get from New York to Florida in under 5 hours, I don't have a choice.

I use Amtrak because they don't treat me like I am not an important part to their business. I use them because I can book my trip in advance, locking in fare and space, without fear that perhaps some unthinkable contingency would cause me to cancel and lose myself a lot of money.

I have met people who like flying as a concept. I have met people who, for some reason, have no major problem with the cluster**** that is commercial airline travel. But I have not met anyone who likes their draconian policies, their "only game in town" attitude, or their rotten onboard conditions. And you suggest we add that horror to the only breath of fresh air we have less.

If Amtrak did this, I wouldn't start flying. No, dear lord. I'd just stop traveling, full stop.
 
Amtrak could toy around with its policies. Amtrak passengers are NOT airline passengers. They are tourists, people who are scared of flying, and people who for some reason or other have decisively concluded that they dislike the airline business model enough to spend more time enroute in order to avoid it. So if Amtrak toys with its policies, it might increase its revenue somewhat. Or it might find itself with a group of pissed-off ex-customers.
I am an airline passenger and Amtrak passenger. I weigh the pros and cons of each mode of travel against each other and make my decision based on what makes the most sense. Sometimes the train comes ahead, sometimes it is the airlines.
 
How does more capacity address the issue of people holding two or more rooms and then dropping them when their locked into high-bucket fares? Who are these rich people who supposedly wait until the last minute to snap up every high-bucket fare? It just doesn't make any sense how Amtrak's policies are helping anyone but scalpers and whishy-washy types who can't commit to spending actual money before they travel.
I get the impression that you're misunderstanding how this works. When reservations are cancelled, they go back into the available inventory at the fare that they were purchased at. Between that and referring to folks as "scalpers", I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
 
I get the impression that you're misunderstanding how this works. When reservations are cancelled, they go back into the available inventory at the fare that they were purchased at. Between that and referring to folks as "scalpers", I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
So if you reserve at 90 days out and then release the room at ten days out the room reappears at the original 90-day low-bucket fare? I'm under the impression it appears at a higher rate proportionate to when it's being resold.
 
On the whole it's a ridiculous system, one that may be superficially good for passengers but bad for everyone overall.

The ability to book and cancel without penalty gives exactly the behavior you're seeing here: it encourages people to buy tickets on the chance that they'll be traveling on some day, knowing that if they decide not to make the trip there's no problem downside. In fact, if they know they'll be traveling sometime within a range of time it's in their best interest to buy tickets on all the possible services and hold on to them as long as possible to maximize their own flexibility. The problem is that these reservations are a scarce resource, and they're taking reservations away from passengers who would value the particular trip more highly.

Thus passengers on the whole loose due to misallocation of the resource.

If the trains were all going out nearly empty it wouldn't be an issue since the reservation would itself be less valuable, but as trains fill up it becomes a real problem, as seen here. You think airlines make such policies for the fun of it? No. They do it because it's a good idea.

On the other hand, Amtrak returns canceled reservations at the original price? That's just silly and bad for Amtrak. The price of reservations go up as the trains fill because each reservation becomes more valuable. To reprice the reservation at its original bucket means Amtrak is offering a discount for no good reason. Amtrak loses out on money it could put toward operations, new equipment, etc, despite the market telling it it can charge more.

Someone proposed adopting ticketing policies where vouchers are issued instead of refunds. I don't think that's much of a solution seeing as the money locked up in Amtrak would only encourage passengers to apply it over and over to new reservations. After all, they can't take it out. Maybe if the voucher could only be reapplied once it would be ok, but that gets into tough accounting issues.

In the end Amtrak should really be charging a fee for canceling a ticket. It doesn't have to be a $200 punch in the face; a $15 slap on the wrist might be enough. If nothing else that means people purchasing the most speculative tickets would be seeing the fees add up pretty quickly. And it should definitely end the practice of blindly returning reservations at the same bucket... though it seems like I heard once that was an issue of their computers instead of a conscious decision.
 
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