The Cardinal needs one more sleeper

[dlagrua]

Just checked fares on the Cardinal for early 2012 and the sleepers are really priced high. A roomette is $381 even this far out. Bedrooms are $781.00. If thats low bucket then all I can say is Ouch!

I believe that us passengers should lobby for another sleeper on the Cardinal. Amtrak maintains 18 spare Viewliners so the equipment should be there. The only limitation might be that the Diner Lite may be strained by accomodating 30 more passengers. However, Amtrak could go with a box lunch system for the coach passengers and a sit down meal reserved for the sleeper pasengers. IMO Amtrak is leaving money on the table by running a single sleeper on the Cardinal route. It is the most scenic Viewliner route and it often sells out!

 

[Amtrak839]

Amtrak only has 11 spare sleepers. There are 50. Meteor has 12, Star has 8, Crescent has 8, Lake Shore has 9, Cardinal has 2. That's 39. They have a few scattered around in NYP and MIA (maybe one in Chicago, not sure) and the rest are rotating through maintenance. If they had the equipment, they'd be running it. Wait for the Viewliner II's.

 

[Jimhudson]

Just rode a Sold Out Card #50/as Dave said they announced it Solf Out till Next Year! The Viewliner we rode/Ocean View is tired and nrefs rehab! As all know diner lite/cafe cars dont get it done on such a popular and scenic route! Id think the Silvers and Crescent could give up a couple of their sleepers in the Summer to the Cards! Remember crew takes 5-6 rooms on Viewliners!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Remember that the 'spare' sleepers are spares in case of bad orders, accidents, maintenance, and the mandatory inspections that the FRA requires.

 

[jis]

Just rode a Sold Out Card #50/as Dave said they announced it Solf Out till Next Year! The Viewliner we rode/Ocean View is tired and nrefs rehab! As all know diner lite/cafe cars dont get it done on such a popular and scenic route! Id think the Silvers and Crescent could give up a couple of their sleepers in the Summer to the Cards! Remember crew takes 5-6 rooms on Viewliners!

What they need to do is get 2 or 3 of those Heritage Dorm-Lounges dusted off for the Card so that they can get all the Viewliner rooms for commercial use, pending the arrival of the Viewliner IIs. They do have a bout 5 to 7 in serviceable shape is what I understand.

 

[afigg]

What they need to do is get 2 or 3 of those Heritage Dorm-Lounges dusted off for the Card so that they can get all the Viewliner rooms for commercial use, pending the arrival of the Viewliner IIs. They do have a bout 5 to 7 in serviceable shape is what I understand.

It was reported, either here or at another rail forum a month or so back, that Amtrak was planning to return 11 Heritage crew dorms to service to free up revenue sleeper rooms. The dorm cars would only be in service until the Viewliner 2 baggage dorms arrive. The thinking was that the Lake Shore Limited would be the first LD train to get them because of the large crew size. After that, anyone's guess. How official this is, don't know.

 

[maxtheplum]

With everything being sold out until 2012, it behooves Amtrak to add another sleeper to the Cardinal. The situation has reached the critical point where capacity on that route is about to burst at the seams. The Viewliner II's should alleviate the capacity issues as they can then run the line daily. However,they have a problem right now. I'm still guessing that the diner lite ( and no availability of a real diner) is the reason that Amtrak may be reluctant to do anything to add capacity right now.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

That seems like a logical idea to me... The Card needs five or so roomettes for crew. That's a loss of over a thousand each run, minimally. That could probably cover the hauagle for the extra car.

 

[jis]

What they need to do is get 2 or 3 of those Heritage Dorm-Lounges dusted off for the Card so that they can get all the Viewliner rooms for commercial use, pending the arrival of the Viewliner IIs. They do have a bout 5 to 7 in serviceable shape is what I understand.

It was reported, either here or at another rail forum a month or so back, that Amtrak was planning to return 11 Heritage crew dorms to service to free up revenue sleeper rooms. The dorm cars would only be in service until the Viewliner 2 baggage dorms arrive. The thinking was that the Lake Shore Limited would be the first LD train to get them because of the large crew size. After that, anyone's guess. How official this is, don't know.

I believe that is what Brian Rosenwald or someone at that level in Amtrak (I forget exactly who, but need to look up my notes, since it is I who saw him say it ) said at one of the various NARP meetings. He did not say that it was something that was a certain thing, but something that was being considered.

 

[The Chief]

Copied from this thread Difference between "hertitage" and current sleeper cars?

Anyone know anything about the notion that Amtrak might be considering using the Heritage 10-6 sleepers previously modified into baggage/dorm cars which they still have in active service again? It is a notion that I recently saw floated by someone (and largely shot down) in a post on the wall of Amtrak's facebook page. In view of rising ridership and new sleepers still being a ways out, I can see how this could potentially free up at least some revenue space.

Amtrak is thinking of using them (upto 11 of them) as Dorm cars pending the arrival of the Viewliner Bag-Dorms. This was publicly stated by an Amtrak representative from Amtrak HQ at the ESPA/NARP New York Region meeting in Schenectady last Saturday, so what someone says on Facebook is probably of less relevance. Note though that they will not be used for providing any commercial sleeping space. But since they will allow moving train staff out of Viewliner sleeping space, in the net they will open up some 4 to 8 roomettes per train depending on the train.

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak only has 11 spare sleepers. There are 50. Meteor has 12, Star has 8, Crescent has 8, Lake Shore has 9, Cardinal has 2. That's 39. They have a few scattered around in NYP and MIA (maybe one in Chicago, not sure) and the rest are rotating through maintenance. If they had the equipment, they'd be running it. Wait for the Viewliner II's.

This. If Amtrak had one (OK, two), they'd run it.

 

[stntylr]

I think it's funny when I read train critics complaining about the price of the sleeper rooms. They can't seem to imagine that anyone would buy one but the fact is they sell out so why would Amtrak lower the price?

 

[dlagrua]

I think it's funny when I read train critics complaining about the price of the sleeper rooms. They can't seem to imagine that anyone would buy one but the fact is they sell out so why would Amtrak lower the price?

Its true that the Cardinal sells out whatever few sleepers they have at a high price but how many people want to ride the Cardinal and would only do it if there were more affordable roomettes/bedrooms? I refuse to pay $781 bedroom or $381 roomette and these have become LOW BUCKET PRICES. If the prices were more in line with what Amtrak charges on say the Capitol limited or Crescent, IMO they would sell out three sleepers all sumer long BUT they would need to add a diner and still keep the diner lite.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Unfair comparisons, the Card is a (scheduled) 30+ hours, the CL is 16+ hours. The CL serves two meals WB, and 2.5 meals EB. The Card has five meal seatings.

 

[BobWeaver]

With everything being sold out until 2012...

The Cardinal is most decidedly not sold out all the way through to 2012, sleepers included.

I think it's funny when I read train critics complaining about the price of the sleeper rooms. They can't seem to imagine that anyone would buy one but the fact is they sell out so why would Amtrak lower the price?

Its true that the Cardinal sells out whatever few sleepers they have at a high price but how many people want to ride the Cardinal and would only do it if there were more affordable roomettes/bedrooms? I refuse to pay $781 bedroom or $381 roomette and these have become LOW BUCKET PRICES. If the prices were more in line with what Amtrak charges on say the Capitol limited or Crescent, IMO they would sell out three sleepers all sumer long BUT they would need to add a diner and still keep the diner lite.

$898 is lowest bucket for a bedroom and $320 is lowest for a roomette if you're doing the whole run from NYP. The LSL's pricing isn't all that much different, either, even with 3 sleepers. Unless Amtrak manages to make the Cardinal daily at the same time that it tacks on another sleeper or 2, the situation will stay the same. It's supply and demand. Frankly, I think Amtrak could get away with charging even higher than they already do for sleeper compartments (especially bedrooms), given their propensity to sell out so quickly.

 

[dlagrua]

With everything being sold out until 2012...

The Cardinal is most decidedly not sold out all the way through to 2012, sleepers included.

I think it's funny when I read train critics complaining about the price of the sleeper rooms. They can't seem to imagine that anyone would buy one but the fact is they sell out so why would Amtrak lower the price?

Its true that the Cardinal sells out whatever few sleepers they have at a high price but how many people want to ride the Cardinal and would only do it if there were more affordable roomettes/bedrooms? I refuse to pay $781 bedroom or $381 roomette and these have become LOW BUCKET PRICES. If the prices were more in line with what Amtrak charges on say the Capitol limited or Crescent, IMO they would sell out three sleepers all sumer long BUT they would need to add a diner and still keep the diner lite.

$898 is lowest bucket for a bedroom and $320 is lowest for a roomette if you're doing the whole run from NYP. The LSL's pricing isn't all that much different, either, even with 3 sleepers. Unless Amtrak manages to make the Cardinal daily at the same time that it tacks on another sleeper or 2, the situation will stay the same. It's supply and demand. Frankly, I think Amtrak could get away with charging even higher than they already do for sleeper compartments (especially bedrooms), given their propensity to sell out so quickly.

You are correct. I forgot to mention that I priced the Cardinal trip from PHL to CHI. I don't understand how people pay $898 to $1100 for a bedroom and probably up to $600, perhaps $800 for a roomette high bucket. Must be the wealthy NYC market doing the buying. I agree that the pricing will stay where it is but revenue will never climb without adding capacity.

The solution is so easy that I am surprised that Amtrak has not added the extra sleeper. We can all guess that the reluctance may have to to do with the diner lites limited capacity and the unavailabilty of a good diner car. After doing some research we find that it was common for the diner to be way overloaded even back in the day. Many missed meals because of this. The railroads solved the food problem by extending the diner hours and also by sending out the porters to sell sandwiches and drinks. They carried boxes (or trays) of pre-prepared sandwiches,drinks (mostly milk) walked the train and sold them to passengers in the coaches and in the sleepers. I don't see why this would not work today.

 

[Ryan]

The solution is so easy that I am surprised that Amtrak has not added the extra sleeper.

Have you not read the other thread you started? THERE IS NO SLEEPER TO ADD!!!

Finally, while it's true that they only need 35 to cover all the trains, that doesn't mean that the other 15 are just sitting around as spares. At all times there is supposed to be 1 spare in NY and Hialeah. The plan also calls for a spare when available to be positioned in Chicago, however it doesn't seem like that happens very often. So we'll call that 2 cars, bringing things to 37 needed.

Last I knew officially, at any given moment Amtrak allows for 2 cars to be in Beech Grove for overhaul work and the FRA required annual inspection. I had heard a rumor that was to be bumped to 3 cars in BG, but that isn't confirmed. Also according to plan, at any given moment at least 4 to 5 cars are out of service (OOS) in Hiahleah Florida for PM work, 92 day inspections, and other needed repairs. During the winter months with freeze problems there may be even more cars OOS in Hialeah.

So while that still potentially leaves a few spares, again it's not like Amtrak has 15 Viewliners available to put into service at any given time to replace a Viewliner that needs repairs or worse gets wrecked.

Amtrak has 50 Viewliners of which 39* are required (contrary to some beliefs of only 35) to be on the road to maintain current service. There are at least 4 protect cars, so gets us to 43. BG has 2 or 3 so that's 46, and then there are the remaining in rotation for inspections etc. So no, no matter how many ways one tries to cook the numbers, there just aren't any spare Viewliners that can be reliably deployed in a regular rotation beyond what is the case now.

*You get 39 as follows:

Train: number of consists x Vieliners per consist = Total Viewliners fortrain

Silver Star: 4 x 2 = 8

Silver Meteor: 4 x 3 = 12

Crescent: 4 x 2 = 8

Cardinal 2 x 1 = 2

Lake Shore Limited: 3 x 3 = 9

Total 39.

Any questions?

 

[dlagrua]

Have you not read the other thread you started? THERE IS NO SLEEPER TO ADD!!!

Yes that is the consensus of opinion (and likely to be Amtaks position)and I understood it. However, when I checked the numbers I came to the conclusion that there were 16 extra Viewliners not 11. If the pool were that strong it wouldn't be a problem. Now your evidence suggests that there are only 11 spare Viewliners. With that amount I agree it wouldn't be feasible.

Its unfortunate that a requirement for an extra car cannot be filled when it is so badly needed. We'll there's always next year and when you add the Viewliner II's to the existing fleet, Amtrak will be in good shape.

What I do not understand is that only a few years back, Amtrak ran several extra routes. Where did they get those sleeping cars and what happened to them? My guess is that they may have been the last of the Heritage Sleepers that went to the recycling yard.

 

[Trogdor]

Its unfortunate that a requirement for an extra car cannot be filled when it is so badly needed.

Welcome to the history of Amtrak since 1971.

In the next exhibit, you'll notice how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

 

[Ryan]

Its unfortunate that a requirement for an extra car cannot be filled when it is so badly needed.

Welcome to the history of Amtrak since 1971.

In the next exhibit, you'll notice how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

I also heard a viscous rumor that the food on the trains isn't the same that was served 70 years ago.

 

[jis]

What I do not understand is that only a few years back, Amtrak ran several extra routes. Where did they get those sleeping cars and what happened to them?

There was a brief period when Amtrak experimented with fielding 41 Viewliners in regular commercial service rotation, but that proved to be not as reliable as one would desire. Also, for a period the Cardinal was Superliner thus not requiring single level sleepers. Initially when Sleeper were re-introduced on the Three Rivers they used refurbished Heritage Sleepers. Later they were replaced by Viewliners, but apparently not as reliably as one would have liked. They also apparently had problems reliably keeping the Night Owl supplied with a Sleeper.

 

[reefgeek]

Its unfortunate that a requirement for an extra car cannot be filled when it is so badly needed.

Welcome to the history of Amtrak since 1971.

In the next exhibit, you'll notice how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

I also heard a viscous rumor that the food on the trains isn't the same that was served 70 years ago.

Well it's more viscous than it was then, anyway. :giggle:

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Its unfortunate that a requirement for an extra car cannot be filled when it is so badly needed.

Welcome to the history of Amtrak since 1971.

In the next exhibit, you'll notice how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

I also heard a viscous rumor that the food on the trains isn't the same that was served 70 years ago.

Wouldn't it have gone bad by now? I wouldn't want to eat 70 year old steak.

 

[tervichi seven]

Truncate the Cardinal in DC and use Superliner equipment on the train.

Is there really a need for the Cardinal to operate to NYP? No. Use the Regionals to connect with it in DC.

 

[Gratt]

Truncate the Cardinal in DC and use Superliner equipment on the train.

Is there really a need for the Cardinal to operate to NYP? No. Use the Regionals to connect with it in DC.

Unless of course you want to check baggage from NYP to a cardinal served station. Your options then would be limited to a really early morning train or dragging anything you wanted to check all the way to DC = very not cool :blink: