Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[afigg]

I agree. If it's a small order it might be able to be "tacked on" as an option to this order.

But even if Amtrak put the Superliner III out to bid Nippon-Sharyo would have a big advantage. Remember the Superliner was used as the design baseline for these cars... so it shouldn't require much retooling to convert the factory from a intercity car assembly line to a Superliner III assembly line.

The design predecessor for the corridor bi-levels is the Surfliner, not the Superliner. The Nippon-Sharyo cars will have 2 doors on each side and I expect numerous internal changes from a Superliner II design. Amtrak can use the coach and BC-cafe car designs with different seating for LD coach cars. But sleeper, diner, sightseer lounge, and dorm cars would require a lot of design work and changes from what Nippon-Sharyo is building. N-S would have an advantage in that they will have a new production facility tooled to build bi-level cars that have a lot in common with Superliners, but building sleeper cars or diners will not be a small or modest design and manufacturing change.
Since funding to build replacement Superliners will be mostly government money, in one form or another, Amtrak will put out any RFP for Superliner or Amfleet replacements as an open bid. Period.

 

[Paulus]

That would be stupid, since for the most part intelligent municipalities would want to return to the product they were comfortable using and had infrastructure to handle.

And for the most part the public interest is in the best bang for the buck and writing an RFP in such a manner to eliminate all chances of a competitive bid do not serve that.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Then again RFPs tend to greatly increase the price of things since most of these companies collude.

 

[Paulus]

Then again RFPs tend to greatly increase the price of things since most of these companies collude.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Paulus, I can't be assed to provide a citation. If the concept intrigues you find it yourself. If it does not then live in the uncertain and incorrect knowledge that by throwing my friend Randall's web comic in my face you have proven something.

 

[neutralist]

What I've seen over the years is Amtrak operates as whichever suits it's purpose at that moment.

If you are looking for a similar entity, look no further than the U.S. Postal Service.

 

[neutralist]

If Wisconsin, Ohio, and Iowa didn't have governments that were openly hostile to passenger rail, we'd also be talking about the new Milwaukee-Madison route,the Ohio 3C route, and the extension of the Quad Cities route to Iowa City and beyond, instead of just the improvements on Illinois and Michigan routes.

I believe plans were underway to restore the Black Hawk or The Badger which includes a terminus at Madison via Elgin, Rockford, South Beloit and Janesville.

But it will be nice if the tracks between Fox Lake and Walworth gets used, providing train access to major vacation spots i.e. Lake Geneva.

 

[rickycourtney]

If Wisconsin, Ohio, and Iowa didn't have governments that were openly hostile to passenger rail, we'd also be talking about the new Milwaukee-Madison route,the Ohio 3C route, and the extension of the Quad Cities route to Iowa City and beyond, instead of just the improvements on Illinois and Michigan routes.

I believe plans were underway to restore the Black Hawk or The Badger which includes a terminus at Madison via Elgin, Rockford, South Beloit and Janesville.

But it will be nice if the tracks between Fox Lake and Walworth gets used, providing train access to major vacation spots i.e. Lake Geneva.

The plan was to restore the Black Hawk between Chicago and Rockford in 2015 and extend it to Dubuque at some point in the future.

 

[Steve4031]

The plans for restoring the badger route comes from a private venture iirc.

 

[MisterUptempo]

If Wisconsin, Ohio, and Iowa didn't have governments that were openly hostile to passenger rail, we'd also be talking about the new Milwaukee-Madison route,the Ohio 3C route, and the extension of the Quad Cities route to Iowa City and beyond, instead of just the improvements on Illinois and Michigan routes.

I believe plans were underway to restore the Black Hawk or The Badger which includes a terminus at Madison via Elgin, Rockford, South Beloit and Janesville.

But it will be nice if the tracks between Fox Lake and Walworth gets used, providing train access to major vacation spots i.e. Lake Geneva.

The possibility of service between Chicago and Madison might happen one day, in spite of Scott Walker, not because of him.

All Aboard Wisconsin, a rail advocacy group, has proposed the route, as opposed to IDOT or WisDOT. The group chartered an Iowa Pacific train in June, inviting decision makers and members of the media aboard, on a trip from Chicago to Madison to Prairie du Chien, to advocate for the service.

No formal report has been put forth, merely a general idea as to a route, and a suggestion of the possibility of utilizing a private operator to run the train.

 

[Anderson]

Just out of curiosity...was the expansion of the order still done with the original $551m?

 

[afigg]

Just out of curiosity...was the expansion of the order still done with the original $551m?

That is my interpretation. The statements so far as just that the FRA and the states are in negotiation for the 45 additional cars, not on where the funds are coming from. But the Nippon-Sharyo bid came in low enough that the FRA should have enough remaining funds to cover the 45 cars minus overhead, project management, retaining some contingency funds, perhaps training & support costs and so on.

There is a story today that may be related to the plans for ordering the additional cars where Gov. Quinn and Senator Durbin are asking Amtrak to look at adding another train to the Chicago to Carbondale corridor. Durbin, Quinn ask Amtrak to consider adding trains,

 

[neroden]

There is a story today that may be related to the plans for ordering the additional cars where Gov. Quinn and Senator Durbin are asking Amtrak to look at adding another train to the Chicago to Carbondale corridor. Durbin, Quinn ask Amtrak to consider adding trains,

Amtrak will be happy to add trains; the problem is convincing CN to add trains. I think Durbin understands this already, but I hope he and Amtrak explain it to Quinn.

 

[afigg]

There is a story today that may be related to the plans for ordering the additional cars where Gov. Quinn and Senator Durbin are asking Amtrak to look at adding another train to the Chicago to Carbondale corridor. Durbin, Quinn ask Amtrak to consider adding trains,

Amtrak will be happy to add trains; the problem is convincing CN to add trains. I think Durbin understands this already, but I hope he and Amtrak explain it to Quinn.

Gov. Quinn may be fully aware of the issue with CN as well. They likely know that CN is probably going to demand funds for track upgrades, but by asking Amtrak to conduct the feasibility study on adding a 3rd daily corridor train, Amtrak and IL DOT can generate cost estimates. So if the downstate politicians want another train, IL DOT will have a handle on how much it will cost. The study may also conclude that adding another train that does backup moves to get to the Carbondale route will interfere too much and that the Grand Crossing project should be completed before adding another daily train.

It is possible that the request for the study is being done in part so as to provide an additional justification for the Grand Crossing project; the project is not just for 3 daily trains, but also for a future 4th one plus the Cardinal. The Grand Crossing project is supposed to complete the EIS and get a Record of Decision approval in 2015, so a request to start a feasibility study this year could be related to that.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Quinn is very aware of CN and its antics. The proposed Galena-Dubuque service has been cut back to Rockford for the time being due to CN's demands for all kinds of improvements to its route. The UP (!) was much more cooperative and the Rockford train will run over Metra Milwaukee West (to Elgin area) and then UP.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Trains News Wire has just reported that the Midwest Coalition and California will order 45 more double-deck cars from Nippon Shayro. Illinois, Michigan and Missouri will get 34 additional cars and California 11. No word on what types of cars - coaches, business, cafe, cab cars - will be added to the initial order. FRA must still approve the use of leftover funds from initial order.

Also, Amtrak has changed its order of Viewliner II's from CAF. Amtrak now wants 15 more full baggage cars 15 less baggage dorms, leaving only 10 baggage-dorms. Since 17 sets of trains are needed to operate the Eastern long-distance fleet this means that not all trains will get baggage-dorms.

 

[jis]

Preferably, the discussion of Viewliner II order, production, usage and testing issues should take place in the Viewliner II thread rather than on the midwest Corridor Bilevels thread.

I have posted the info on that thread, the last page (46th page) of which is at:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/page-46

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Trains News Wire has just reported that . . .

Also, Amtrak has changed its order of Viewliner II's from CAF. Amtrak now wants 15 more full baggage cars 15 less baggage dorms, leaving only 10 baggage-dorms. Since 17 sets of trains are needed to operate the Eastern long-distance fleet this means that not all trains will get baggage-dorms.

Not what optimists wanted to hear.

Probably full baggage cars are cheaper than bag-dorms,

so is this a way to save a little money on this order?

Also means non-revenue baggage cars will supplant

the bag-dorms that were about "half" revenue cars.

So we'll see much less sleeper space, roughly 7 or 8

sleepers equivalent, with reductions in future revenue.

Seems ever less likely that the order will be changed

to include the 70-car option to expand the fleet and be

ready and able to expand the number of trains.

Maybe hacking away at the budgets for sleeper service

including dining cars, made Amtrak less convinced

that the more expensive service actually makes much

of an operating profit after all.

 

[neroden]

The UP (!) was much more cooperative

UP's actually been really good in the last couple of years. I'm wondering if John Koraleski has made a change, since, frankly, he only took over the company a couple of years ago.

 

[afigg]

Trains News Wire has just reported that the Midwest Coalition and California will order 45 more double-deck cars from Nippon Shayro. Illinois, Michigan and Missouri will get 34 additional cars and California 11. No word on what types of cars - coaches, business, cafe, cab cars - will be added to the initial order. FRA must still approve the use of leftover funds from initial order.

The Trains Magazine news wire story has a photo of the interior of a cafe car portion of a mock-up shell car. From the news wire story, the states are still determining the mix and allocation of the car types, so they are probably are negotiating with Nippon-Sharyo on the exact break-down of the additional order depending on the cost and possibly the delivery schedule. There is a September 30, 2017 deadline on the stimulus portion of the funding; fro example cab-coach-bag cars may take the longest to build and test.
As for getting the approval from the FRA, the head of the FRA has already spoken about the 45 cars as almost a done deal and they have been included in FRA presentations. So FRA approval is presumably just a formality provided there are no hold-ups in the negotiations.

 

[PerRock]

Using the trickery of web coding, is this the image you're talking about? (I can't actually read the article).

peter

 

[Paulus]

Trains News Wire has just reported that the Midwest Coalition and California will order 45 more double-deck cars from Nippon Shayro. Illinois, Michigan and Missouri will get 34 additional cars and California 11. No word on what types of cars - coaches, business, cafe, cab cars - will be added to the initial order. FRA must still approve the use of leftover funds from initial order.

The Trains Magazine news wire story has a photo of the interior of a cafe car portion of a mock-up shell car. From the news wire story, the states are still determining the mix and allocation of the car types, so they are probably are negotiating with Nippon-Sharyo on the exact break-down of the additional order depending on the cost and possibly the delivery schedule. There is a September 30, 2017 deadline on the stimulus portion of the funding; fro example cab-coach-bag cars may take the longest to build and test.
As for getting the approval from the FRA, the head of the FRA has already spoken about the 45 cars as almost a done deal and they have been included in FRA presentations. So FRA approval is presumably just a formality provided there are no hold-ups in the negotiations.

California is apparently planning on 45 coaches, 5 cafe-lounge, and 3 cabbages which would mean that all 11 new cars for California are coaches (base order is 34, 5, and 3).

 

[neroden]

Those are really odd numbers for California. I can't quite figure out their logic.

Current California roster:

cabs: 14 "California cars" (with seats, no baggage), 16 "Surfliners", 3 new, total 33

cafes: 14 "California cars", 12 "Surfliners", 5 new, total 31

Seating: 32 "California cars", 6 coach-bag "California cars", 23 "Surfliners", 10 business-class "Surfliners", 45 new cars, total

This is a somewhat motley assortment. I really would have expected the number of cabs to match the number of cafes in some fashion. Is California making any effort to update the California Cars to Surfliner layouts?

 

[roadman3313]

If you look at the consists as of recent some trains have two cab cars (similar to Caltrain) with one at the end and one in the middle. This serves a similar purpose as it does on Caltrain as it effectively doubles the bike capacity available. I know the California Cab Cars were recently retrofitted to increase bicycle capacity on the Capitol Corridor Route (racks fold down for additional luggage space on the San Joaquin route) Lack of bicycle racks was an issue so this has helped with the bicycle capacity issues on the Capitol Corridor.

Those have been the only changes I have seen to the California Cars. The increased bike capacity is due to the completion of the California Cab Cars (I believe they did the retrofits of the lower level into bike space when the cars went in for PTC upgrades), the assignment of all 6 Coach-Baggage 8200-series (now Coach-Bike) cars to the Capitol Corridor (swapped 6 coach cars with the San Joaquin pool as a trade), and the addition of the Comet trainset(s) to the San Joaquin fleet to free up more cab/coach/bike cars for the Capitol Corridor.

The only Surfliner layouts (unless you count the retrofitted California Cab cars) in Northern California are the "Surfliner" cars assigned to the Northern California Pool (2 Coach/Café, 5 Coaches, and 5 Cab/Bike/Baggage/Coaches).

 

[Paulus]

Those are really odd numbers for California. I can't quite figure out their logic.

Current California roster:

cabs: 14 "California cars" (with seats, no baggage), 16 "Surfliners", 3 new, total 33

cafes: 14 "California cars", 12 "Surfliners", 5 new, total 31

Seating: 32 "California cars", 6 coach-bag "California cars", 23 "Surfliners", 10 business-class "Surfliners", 45 new cars, total

This is a somewhat motley assortment. I really would have expected the number of cabs to match the number of cafes in some fashion. Is California making any effort to update the California Cars to Surfliner layouts?

1 cab and 1 cafe for use as new equipment, 4 cafes and 2 cabs to replace existing equipment. The two replacement cabs and two of the cafes are going on the Surfliner, the new capacity cab and cafe, plus two replacement cafes, go to Oakland for San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor.

If there's an excess of cab cars, I would suspect it's probably for extra spare on hand reasons such as you'd see with locomotives.