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neroden said:
King County Metro (Seattle) issued a hatchet job report on its trolleybuses a couple of years ago comparing brand new fuel buses with their 20-year-old Bredas rather than comparing them with brand new New Flyer trolleybuses -- local activists cried foul, got after them, and King County Metro ended up issuing a new report which showed that yes, trolleybuses were cheaper to operate.
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Definitely OT, but here's the report you're referring to.
 
Good points all. It does show that it makes no sense to have management fragmented between Amtrak, NJT, SEPTA, MARC, etc. Geographical unification is more efficient for mass transportation agencies. :p
 
Amtrak buys power in two parts. It has an contract with a independent power broker. This provides the bulk energy. They also have arrangements with the local supply utilities to move the purchased energy to their service points.

Amtrak's utility costs are what is called a demand rate. It is not based on the total kilowatt hours (KWH) consumed, like a residence. It is based on the peak KW load required. This is because Amtrak's load is extremely spiky, and the spikes come at just the wrong time for the supplying utilities - morning and afternoon rush hours. Demand pricing means that if something happens to reduce Amtrak's ability to get power from its non-utiltiy source - Safe Harbor Dam (such as lowe river flow), then Amtrak's utility peak utility demand goes up and Amtrak pricing is adjusted upward for a contracted period of time. Even a very short issue at Safe Harbor can affect the power costs for several months. Looking at the comparative residential power rates gives a sense of what Amtrak might be paying for power, but it is not the complete story.

Amtrak's power charge to commuter agencies like NJ Transit and SEPTA is not based on metered power consumed. It is based on a formula that considers equipment type, the power demand of each time, and the estimated miles traveled. The costs are adjusted periodically based on equipment and operational changes. The charges are not just for the energy consumed, but also for the operation and maintenance of the Amtrak electric traction system (ET). That later part really runs up the costs. Amtrak has a reputation of skewing cost sharing formulas like that heavily in their favor. Whether that is the case with the Amtrak ET formula's, I don't know.

My bet is that Amtrak is very happy not being legally considered a utility. That gets them out from under all the state and federal regulation and oversight that require utilities to fill entire floors with analysts and report writers. If Amtrak has one of their 138kV lines blow into a tree, they go out, cut the tree, fix the conductor, and turn it back on. If a utility has that happen, they do the same thing, plus pay the feds heavy fines for inadequate vegetation management. Amtrak has the better deal.
 
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PRR 60 said:
Amtrak buys power in two parts. It has an contract with a independent power broker. This provides the bulk energy. They also have arrangements with the local supply utilities to move the purchased energy to their service points.

Amtrak's utility costs are what is called a demand rate. It is not based on the total kilowatt hours (KWH) consumed, like a residence. It is based on the peak KW load required. This is because Amtrak's load is extremely spiky, and the spikes come at just the wrong time for the supplying utilities - morning and afternoon rush hours. Demand pricing means that if something happens to reduce Amtrak's ability to get power from its non-utiltiy source - Safe Harbor Dam (such as lowe river flow), then Amtrak's utility peak utility demand goes up and Amtrak pricing is adjusted upward for a contracted period of time. Even a very short issue at Safe Harbor can affect the power costs for several months. Looking at the comparative residential power rates gives a sense of what Amtrak might be paying for power, but it is not the complete story.
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I was looking at the EIA average within a utility territory over all sales: residential, commercial, industrial, and (if broken out separately) transportation. (AFAICT, transportation does *not* seem to include Amtrak; I haven't quite figured that out.) I figured since there's no way to break out Amtrak's power bill separately, the best I could do was the utility's overall average rate. Industrial per kwh rates are generally substantially cheaper than the average and residential more expensive, but peak charges can raise the industrial pricing back up, as you say.
I didn't pay much attention to the bulk-power vs. delivery thing because I've found it's not generally much of a difference from the integrated price.

Amtrak's power charge to commuter agencies like NJ Transit and SEPTA is not based on metered power consumed.
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Welllll, this is a bit of a problem, isn't it? If I were SEPTA I'd order my new motors with meters. Because that makes it all too easy to charge totally the wrong amount. I've casually looked at this kind of problem with city streetlights, which are also unmetered -- the charges are usually absurdly far off from appropriate, and cities have had to fight the electric utility over charges when they replace sodium lamps with LEDs.

It is based on a formula that considers equipment type, the power demand of each time, and the estimated miles traveled. The costs are adjusted periodically based on equipment and operational changes. The charges are not just for the energy consumed, but also for the operation and maintenance of the Amtrak electric traction system (ET). That later part really runs up the costs. Amtrak has a reputation of skewing cost sharing formulas like that heavily in their favor. Whether that is the case with the Amtrak ET formula's, I don't know.
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Mmmm. You'd think the substantial customer defection (MBTA, MARC, Shore Line East operating with diesel) would deter Amtrak from doing that; it's counterproductive. Wear & tear on the electrical system isn't much different with more trains running. Overcharging two SEPTA lines, one NJT line, and the funnel of NJT trains from Newark to New York doesn't seem like it would make enough money to compensate for the loss of the other agencies...

My bet is that Amtrak is very happy not being legally considered a utility. That gets them out from under all the state and federal regulation and oversight that require utilities to fill entire floors with analysts and report writers. If Amtrak has one of their 138kV lines blow into a tree, they go out, cut the tree, fix the conductor, and turn it back on. If a utility has that happen, they do the same thing, plus pay the feds heavy fines for inadequate vegetation management. Amtrak has the better deal.
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afigg said:
Eric S said:
Hasn't SEPTA been looking a bilevel equipment? Perhaps to pair with the new locomotives?
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Yes. As the news article states: "And it will soon begin the process of procuring 45 bi-level railcars to increase capacity on the Regional Rail lines." So the SEPTA ACS-64s will be teamed with new bi-level cars for rush hour trains.
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Do you know if the bi-level cars will be like the same as the NJ Transit ones?
 
Yes.

http://septa.org/rebuilding/vehicles/bi-level.html

In order to accommodate ridership growth on the Regional Railroad, SEPTA will purchase (up to 55) multi-level passenger railcars. These new cars, together with the new electric locomotives, will provide additional capacity to accommodate our increasing ridership. The multi-level cars will look similar to those used by MARC between Washington and Baltimore and New Jersey Transit.
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Ryan said:
Yes.

http://septa.org/rebuilding/vehicles/bi-level.html

In order to accommodate ridership growth on the Regional Railroad, SEPTA will purchase (up to 55) multi-level passenger railcars. These new cars, together with the new electric locomotives, will provide additional capacity to accommodate our increasing ridership. The multi-level cars will look similar to those used by MARC between Washington and Baltimore and New Jersey Transit.
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Ok, thanks! Didn't see this post before. No these cars have the clearance of SEPTA's tunnels?
 
Amtrak172 said:
jis said:
They have the clearance for the New York tunnels which are tighter than the SEPTA tunnels. Ergo....
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True, thanks! Any ETA on the new cars?
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The SEPTA board document that was posted after the formal announcement of the SEPTA ACS-64 order stated that the delivery of the locomotives is scheduled to start in June, 2018. SEPTA may tie the delivery schedule of the multi-levels to the new locomotives. As for clearance, there was a news report a few months ago that there were some clearance issues in the center city tunnels for the multi-levels, but that it would a minor project to fix. Raise some wires, move some electrical equipment, adjust the track bed sort of thing, IIRC. But this is drifting off from the topic of the Amtrak (and SEPTA) ACS-64s.
 
Yup. They had to do all of those things at NY Penn Station too, including on signal that a multilevel knocked down during the first clearance tests in Penn Station!

So I guess in the spriit of EuroSprinters, these should be called PennsySprinters or some such? PS-64 anyone?
 
A couple new developments happened today.

Amtrak went to the Siemens factory to take away AMTK 646 and 647.

Also, Veterans unit 642 was seen on a test train (it first shows up at 2:53)

 
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When is 642 supposed to test on the NEC? Anyone know what time it'll go through the Trenton/Philly area?
 
Fanrailer:

You posted the tests trains in both directions on both days. on two boards (I'm playing 2 box ^_^ )without mentioning how you feel about it.

How do you feel????

Do you like it? Do you think it looks better on a diesel or an electric? Do you think the average person will notice it, particularly at speed?
 

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