LSL Michigan Reroute Rumors & Speculation

[jis]

Amtrak has not purchased the Wolverine route. State of Michigan has. That is a huge difference since at least financially, at present there is no love lost between MichDOT and Amtrak, from what I have been hearing.

but of course we will see soon enough what will or will not happen, won't we? I was just providing any known related material that is available. Of course it is Boardman that pretty much laid off the entire PIP team. And BTW, if Boardman's disregard for the findings of that team is true, Philly, that does not bode well at all for the through train or cars from Philly to Chicago. So be very careful what you wish for.

An occasional dose of reality is good for people who seem to lose track of it often.

Anyway, to realize this sort of a change, I surmise that the LSL will have to leave New York at around 1pm instead of 3pm, if not a bit earlier, to preserve the Western connections in Chicago. Similarly, it will need to depart Chicago a couple of hours earlier in order for the Boston section to get to Boston at a reasonable hour, and to preserve the few connections still possible at New York, specially allowing for the regular hour or two delays. Other than that, I only see WTI and BYN losing one train and direct connection to New York State. Folks from SOB and EKH can always use NLS which is a short drive, to catch the rerouted LSL.

And I agree with Sarah. Not hitting DET is no big deal. Too much hassle for too little return to bother with it.

If it happens in October, I will get to ride the new route on the way to the AU Gathering too!

 

[tim49424]

Disclaimer this is atleast 3rd hand information now...

Discussion on railroadfan.com is talking about the Lake Shore Limited being permanently rerouted thru Michigan. The current plans are for the LSL running on the Michigan Line starting in Oct. and running for a month.

Beyond that known information there is a bunch of speculation, including station stops, schedule, etc.

Peter

Someone had mentioned it in a comment on the LSL Facebook page as well. I'm curious about the details of when in October this will take place as I'm riding from Boston to Chicago on the 10th.

My source, implies that it will be the whole month. So you would be in MI, if it happens.

peter

The key word is if, just from reading the rest of this thread. I'm convinced to be skeptical and like Charlie, I'll believe it's actually happening once an official announcement has been made.

 

[saxman]

Someone told me the track from DER to TOL is only 40 mph. Can anyone confirm?

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I just searched Facebook for this, and it states it is possible it will be operated as a branch of off the LSL, splitting at TOL. In this case, the schedule could be kept the same. Assuming the branch went to Chicago, it would have to leave around 7 PM and could arrive 12:30 PM. This operation would be similar to the proposed FEC routing in Florida, with a direct train to Miami and another slower section that also eventually ends up in Miami. I am curious how they would do this, with the train already being split in Boston. Also, if the train were to be completely rerouted via Michigan, would the CL begin stopping at Bryan?

 

[jis]

The simplest way to do it would be to split it at the same point in the train where the New York and Boston sections are joined, and send one of them via Dearborn. There really is not other simple way of doing it at ll. I would surmise that the New York section would go via Dearborn and the Boston section on the original route.

Yeah, if the whole train goes via Dearborn then CL will definitely get a stop at Bryan. That is a no brainer to maintain service at Bryan.

 

[SarahZ]

2. I realize Detroit is not the most important city in Michigan for Amtrak, but serving it would still be a huge advantage. Amtrak is a form of public transportation, so not everyone onboard has a car and can drive the last few miles. I think Detroit will have higher ridership once the streetcar opens.

Those who do not drive can still catch any of the Wolverines to/from Dearborn. It's not like Detroit would lose Amtrak service in general.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

See section 3.6 on page 47 of the Lake Shore Limited PIP.

3.6 Initiatives Examined but Not Included in the Plan

While this reroute would have provided direct rail service between Michigan cities and the Northeast,...

Actually, what piqued my interest in the thread, was that exact service. Better, direct, much needed, connection between the Detroit area and the Northeast.

 

[Ryan]

I thought that was his job. I think we should nickname him "Mr. Cold Water".

I know, reality sucks, doesn't it.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

The simplest way to do it would be to split it at the same point in the train where the New York and Boston sections are joined, and send one of them via Dearborn. There really is not other simple way of doing it at ll. I would surmise that the New York section would go via Dearborn and the Boston section on the original route.

Yeah, if the whole train goes via Dearborn then CL will definitely get a stop at Bryan. That is a no brainer to maintain service at Bryan.

Why doesn't the CL stop in Bryan already? I think if both stopped the CL would get higher ridership at Bryan given the hours and connections.

If the train was split back into the NYP and BOS sections, would people have one ticket as now and just be forced to change cars at some point? It would probably make sense to do this at ALB, as TOL is during overnight hours.

 

[jis]

Yeah, probably doing the shuffle in ALB would be better than doing it in TOL.Specially after the track work and platform construction is completed ALB will be better equipped to handle such.

 

[MikefromCrete]

This all sounds a bit off. Amtrak is going to reroute an LD train as a test for only a month? What would that prove? You get people excited about a new service and then snatch it away before people can even make plans and reservations? I don't think so.

IF such a reroute is practical, it would have to wait for the completion of Michigan's upgrade of the Kalamazoo-Detroit line to 110 mph. I doubt if that work will be completed by October. Give it two or three more years.

Of course, Dearborn to Toledo would have to be on a current freight-only route that would be good for 40 mph at the best.

I don't think current passengers traveling east of Toledo would be amused by an additional two hours or more added to the already lengthy schedule, which is seldom met to begin with. They don't call it the Late Shore Limited for no good reason.

A much more practical approach would be to reroute a Wolverine (after two or three RT's are added to the schedule) from Dearborn to Toledo to make connections. Heck, you could even throw in a through sleeper and coach for that matter. (Of course that would mean CAF would actually have to complete the sleeper order in our lifetimes.)

There's also no need for a time-consuming back up to the Detroit station. The Dearborn station will be fine. People in Detroit know how to get to Dearborn.

There's no way the LSL would be routed through Canada. You would miss Cleveland and Toledo, for Pete's sake; a through route from Buffalo to Detroit through Ontario no longer exists; and customs and border procedures would eat up four hours. Gone are the days when you could just stroll into Canada with a minimum of fuss.

This is some railfan's pipe dream.

 

[jis]

It may just be an elaborate hoax so that we can add eight or more pages of discussion to this thread I am skeptical until I hear about it from a source slightly more reliable than the current mostly unreliable one. But still it is fun to discuss the pros and cons of something that can actually be done with currently available resources, as opposed to the spectacular vaporware that is usually discussed around here.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

If the goal is to service Detroit/Dearborn, wouldn't re-routing thru Canada make more sense? Though, that would eliminate Erie and Cleveland.

There's no way the LSL would be routed through Canada. You would miss Cleveland and Toledo, for Pete's sake; a through route from Buffalo to Detroit through Ontario no longer exists; and customs and border procedures would eat up four hours. Gone are the days when you could just stroll into Canada with a minimum of fuss.

This is some railfan's pipe dream.

I didn't think it was worst possible question. :unsure:

First, I had thought that the Capital Limited could still give service to Cleveland and Toledo from the NE and Chicago. I didn't realize that part of this proposal was to kill off the CL? Second, I wasn't aware that its now impossible for any Amtrak train to "stroll" into Canada anymore. Would anything change if there were no stops in Canada?

What track does Via's Toronto to Windsor service run on?

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

How far into Michigan does the proposed route go before branching off of the Wolverine?

Most like it would join the Wolverine route at Dearborn.

I don't think this is the most effective way to serve Michigan for 3 reasons:1. It bypasses Detroit

2. It would serve Eastern Michigan at overnight hours, especially eastbound.

3. It adds about 2.5 hours to runtime.

I think a more effective solution is a Wolverine backing into Detroit and continuing to Toledo. If possible, thru cars could be added at Toledo.

Proposed Schedule:

Chicago 4:15 PM

Detroit 9:45 PM

Arrive Toledo 11:15 PM

CL Departs 11:49 PM

LSL Departs 3:20 AM

CL Arrives 5:08 AM

LSL Arrives 5:55 AM

Depart Toledo 7:00 AM

Detroit 8:30 AM

Chicago 2 PM

If thru cars were operated, I think they should be on the CL, keeping it on time Westbound and giving it a shorter runtime eastbound. It would also allow better connections at WAS.

I personally don't like that, because that basically eliminates connections with the EB, SWC, and CZ (not enough time by 15 min) (min connection time 2:30)

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

How far into Michigan does the proposed route go before branching off of the Wolverine?

Most like it would join the Wolverine route at Dearborn.

I don't think this is the most effective way to serve Michigan for 3 reasons:1. It bypasses Detroit

2. It would serve Eastern Michigan at overnight hours, especially eastbound.

3. It adds about 2.5 hours to runtime.

I think a more effective solution is a Wolverine backing into Detroit and continuing to Toledo. If possible, thru cars could be added at Toledo.

Proposed Schedule:

Chicago 4:15 PM

Detroit 9:45 PM

Arrive Toledo 11:15 PM

CL Departs 11:49 PM

LSL Departs 3:20 AM

CL Arrives 5:08 AM

LSL Arrives 5:55 AM

Depart Toledo 7:00 AM

Detroit 8:30 AM

Chicago 2 PM

If thru cars were operated, I think they should be on the CL, keeping it on time Westbound and giving it a shorter runtime eastbound. It would also allow better connections at WAS.

I personally don't like that, because that basically eliminates connections with the EB, SWC, and CZ (not enough time by 15 min) (min connection time 2:30)

I proposed that as a branch off of the current route, with the same schedule as now on the same route. I believe the Wolverine also has a morning train that makes connections at CHI. Also, there are connections between LD trains under 2:30.

 

[afigg]

This all sounds a bit off. Amtrak is going to reroute an LD train as a test for only a month? What would that prove? You get people excited about a new service and then snatch it away before people can even make plans and reservations? I don't think so.

IF such a reroute is practical, it would have to wait for the completion of Michigan's upgrade of the Kalamazoo-Detroit line to 110 mph. I doubt if that work will be completed by October. Give it two or three more years.

Of course, Dearborn to Toledo would have to be on a current freight-only route that would be good for 40 mph at the best.

The bulk of the funding Michigan received for the corridor was stimulus funds, so the work is supposed to be completed by June 2017 so the FRA can pay the invoices by the end of September 2017 deadline. MI did get $150 million in FY2010 funds, but that was mostly to pay for purchasing the 135 miles of track, which the state has done. So the 110 mph upgrades in MI should be completed by no later than mid-2017, not in 2 or 3 years. The Indiana Gateway projects were supposed to be completed in 2016, but 7 of the 8 projects apply to the LSL and CL regardless of whether the LSL is re-routed through MI.

That noted, as I posted earlier in this thread, this October is too soon for a rerouted LSL to take full advantage of the MI track upgrades. The double tracking between SDY and ALB and the track & platform upgrades at ALB may be done by this September; they have been working on ALB long enough. If the IN Gateway and Empire corridor improvements are in place by October, perhaps what might actually be the plan for the LSL this fall is to finally implement the proposed CHI departure time flip with the CL. The eastbound LSL could depart CHI circa 7 to 7:30 PM and the CL would be shifted to a later departure. Perhaps someone heard about the proposed earlier departure and thought it was so that the LSL could go through Michigan and keep its current NY Empire corridor times.

We will have to wait and see what happens. Amtrak should have a new CEO by October, so plans could get changed by the new boss.

 

[railiner]

If the goal is to service Detroit/Dearborn, wouldn't re-routing thru Canada make more sense? Though, that would eliminate Erie and Cleveland.

There's no way the LSL would be routed through Canada. You would miss Cleveland and Toledo, for Pete's sake; a through route from Buffalo to Detroit through Ontario no longer exists; and customs and border procedures would eat up four hours. Gone are the days when you could just stroll into Canada with a minimum of fuss.

This is some railfan's pipe dream.

VI didn't think it was worst possible question. :unsure:

First, I had thought that the Capital Limited could still give service to Cleveland and Toledo from the NE and Chicago. I didn't realize that part of this proposal was to kill off the CL? Second, I wasn't aware that its now impossible for any Amtrak train to "stroll" into Canada anymore. Would anything change if there were no stops in Canada?

What track does Via's Toronto to Windsor service run on?

)

VIA uses CN trackage. There is no easy way to get from VIA's Windsor station to the railroad tunnel to Detroit. The old Canada Southern RR, line (NYC/PC/Conrail subsidiary), that Amtrak's 'Niagara Rainbow', and 'Empire State Express' used to run over, is mostly gone as well.

Whether running "closed doors" across Canada, would be acceptable, is a good question....they would probably have to have a Canadian border officer ride from border to border to insure no one got on or off enroute..

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

This all sounds a bit off. Amtrak is going to reroute an LD train as a test for only a month? What would that prove? You get people excited about a new service and then snatch it away before people can even make plans and reservations? I don't think so.

IF such a reroute is practical, it would have to wait for the completion of Michigan's upgrade of the Kalamazoo-Detroit line to 110 mph. I doubt if that work will be completed by October. Give it two or three more years.

Of course, Dearborn to Toledo would have to be on a current freight-only route that would be good for 40 mph at the best.

I don't think current passengers traveling east of Toledo would be amused by an additional two hours or more added to the already lengthy schedule, which is seldom met to begin with. They don't call it the Late Shore Limited for no good reason.

A much more practical approach would be to reroute a Wolverine (after two or three RT's are added to the schedule) from Dearborn to Toledo to make connections. Heck, you could even throw in a through sleeper and coach for that matter. (Of course that would mean CAF would actually have to complete the sleeper order in our lifetimes.)

There's also no need for a time-consuming back up to the Detroit station. The Dearborn station will be fine. People in Detroit know how to get to Dearborn.

There's no way the LSL would be routed through Canada. You would miss Cleveland and Toledo, for Pete's sake; a through route from Buffalo to Detroit through Ontario no longer exists; and customs and border procedures would eat up four hours. Gone are the days when you could just stroll into Canada with a minimum of fuss.

This is some railfan's pipe dream.

would there be a possibility of the train not stopping? Also, how much would a rehabilitation of Buffalo-Detroit cost? If you did not stop the train in Canada, you could get by with a minnimum of customs, or use the cascades system, which is customs in Vancouver, only adding time to international passengers, while keepeing domestic passengers free of customs

 

[A Voice]

According to a post on Trainorders, the Michigan detour for the Lake Shore Limited is account Norfolk Southern trackwork.

 

[west point]

IMHO the best way to connect to the LSL is a car on the end of 354 &353 that connects at Durand. Use either a DMU or just a car ( once equipment is available ) pulled by a 500 series loco. Up grade one of the 4 tracks that parallel for passenger speeds and get the freight RRs to agree to use the other 3 ?

 

[railiner]

Now that sounds like the logical reason for the detour....trackwork

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

if you put a car on the end of a wolverine, how would you get to the cafe car? There is an engine on each end, also, no dining car untill Toledo?

 

[jis]

So now we know the speeds on the proposed detour from a post on trainorders....

3 miles at 10mph, and the rest between Toledo and Dearborn at 50mph or less, with zero funding for fixing anything in sight.

Glad that it is just a temporary thing.

Amtrak is apparently trying to convince Michigan to pay for part of it by offering to stop at Michigan stations. Michigan has first right of refusal, which they probably will. Amtrak of course could still stop in Michigan, but we'll see what happens.

 

[reppin_the_847]

I live in the Detroit suburbs currently and I'm originally from the Chicago area (lived in the Chicago area most of my life), so perhaps my perspective is a bit biased. A couple noteworthy items though. The Detroit Metropolitan area is the #2 most populated metro area in the entire Midwest (moreso than Minneapolis, yes). It is the 12th largest CSA (Combined Statistical Area) in the USA with an estimated population of 5,319,913 as of the year 2015.

Furthermore, the University of Michigan (in Ann Arbor) attracts more students from the NYC metro area than most other Big 10 universities in the Midwest. There should be a market for this service IMO.

 

[MikefromCrete]

According to a post on Trainorders, the Michigan detour for the Lake Shore Limited is account Norfolk Southern trackwork.

OK, so this isn't some kind of test of a Michigan detour, just a detour for track work. That makes some more sense. I doubt if there will be any intermediate stops. Too complicated to set up fares and sell tickets for something that temporary.