Amtrak Train 91-CSX collision in SC (2/4/18)/Liability issues

[jis]

I suspect that this NTSB recommendation will be ignored except by the one railroad that is head by an ex-airline CEO perhaps

 

[cpotisch]

As much as I respect Lester Holt on NBC Nightly News, this evening NBC's reporting on this tragedy seemed to me to point the finger of responsibility at Amtrak. I would classify this "reporting" as "incomplete news". Like others, I want to see the NTSB report to determine what happened and where responsibility lies. For me, at this time, CSX seems to be the responsible culprit.

And as much as I totally disagree about your opinion of Holt, I will say this -- all he does is read the crap that is put before him. Don't entirely blame him; point the finger where it belongs...

Lester Holt is a teleprompter reader, and he does his job enthusiastically. And he reads what's written for him as if he actually believes it, as go the others.

National News in just 20 minutes or so plus commercials... That's not "News" ... That's Entertainment !!

Almost every reporter on National Television has a script. I think that Holt reads a script, but will do actual reporting, and won't debase himself for mere ratings.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

New to me the CSX train was staffed at the time of the accident.

The engineer of the stopped CSX train had exited the lead locomotive before the Amtrak train entered the siding, ran to safety, and was not injured. The conductor of the CSX lead locomotive saw the Amtrak train approaching in the siding and ran to the back of locomotive. The conductor was thrown off the locomotive and sustained minor injuries.

Changes the story of this accident, and what when wrong.

 

[frequentflyer]

New to me the CSX train was staffed at the time of the accident.

The engineer of the stopped CSX train had exited the lead locomotive before the Amtrak train entered the siding, ran to safety, and was not injured. The conductor of the CSX lead locomotive saw the Amtrak train approaching in the siding and ran to the back of locomotive. The conductor was thrown off the locomotive and sustained minor injuries.

Changes the story of this accident, and what when wrong.

That is a new point. I wander after calling 911 if the freight crew started Monday Morning quartebacking among themselves wandering why the Amtrak train was on the wrong track.

 

[jis]

So the question remains whether they just happened to forget to realign the switch to the main or they were under the impression that giving up the warrant did not involve doing the switch realignment.

 

[Ryan]

New to me the CSX train was staffed at the time of the accident.

The engineer of the stopped CSX train had exited the lead locomotive before the Amtrak train entered the siding, ran to safety, and was not injured. The conductor of the CSX lead locomotive saw the Amtrak train approaching in the siding and ran to the back of locomotive. The conductor was thrown off the locomotive and sustained minor injuries.

Changes the story of this accident, and what when wrong.

Do you have a link where the quote comes from?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

NTSB also says that because of this incident, they recommend that the Federal Railroad Administration issue an Emergency Order directing railroads to require that when signal suspensions are in effect and a switch has been reported relined for a main track, the next train or locomotive to pass the location must approach that location at restricted speed.

This restricted speed point, has me wondering. Just how slow would 91 need to have been going, to have successfully stopped once the engineer realized that the switch was set wrong? I would assume that this would be after 91 "turned" (right word?) into the siding, the engineer realized this, saw the CSX consist was already in that siding, ascertained the CSX was stopped, the engineer apply the brakes, and 91 fully stop before hitting the CSX engine.

 

[John Bobinyec]

"Restricted Speed" is usually defined something similar to this: Prepared to stop short of train, broken rail or other obstruction, within one half the range of vision, not to exceed 15 MPH.

jb

 

[MattW]

I'm surprised no one's pushing a technological solution. I can personally imagine some kind of transponder linked to the switch which relays a communication to a temporary signal set at stopping distance from the location of the transponder. For dense areas with lots of switches, use multiple transponders linked to one signal. For all dark territory, it's a bit of a stretch, but for temporary signal suspensions, I can see it being deployed.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

New to me the CSX train was staffed at the time of the accident.

The engineer of the stopped CSX train had exited the lead locomotive before the Amtrak train entered the siding, ran to safety, and was not injured. The conductor of the CSX lead locomotive saw the Amtrak train approaching in the siding and ran to the back of locomotive. The conductor was thrown off the locomotive and sustained minor injuries.

Changes the story of this accident, and what when wrong.

Do you have a link where the quote comes from?

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RSR1801.pdf?utm_source=news&utm_medium=email&utm_content=railroad

Source was NTSB.

 

[Blackwolf]

Well, that changes everything.

 

[Lonestar648]

The Engineer was outside the CSX unit, though did not say where but he ran for safety. Could the Conductor and Engineer realized they had released the Warrant, before realigning the switch, so the Engineer was walking back to the switch when 91 came to the switch thus entering the siding.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

It opens a can of worms.

Original I saw the two half of the cafe car and assumed it was two different cars in the woods.

Original all reports stated Amtrak hit a unattended CSX train. Which I assumed was tied down and the crew had gone home.

Big detail that the CSX train crew was on scene at the time of the accident.

Yes they could of release the warrant early. They have a story to tell, and it has not been reported yet.

.

 

[keelhauled]

If the CSX crew was on scene and in the locomotive then it seems to me that they likely had just brought their train into the siding. So they had been occupying the main just minutes ahead of 91 traveling at track speed. Did the dispatcher even know the CSX train was there?

 

[jis]

Yes. That is what releasing track warrant involves. Notifying the dispatcher. And that is how Amtrak got its track warrant. From the dispatcher.

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[Just-Thinking-51]

The track warrant might of been a time based one for the CSX crew. The dispatcher might of not even talk to them before given Amtrak permission to travel in that block.

Can of Worms.

Need to hear the radio traffic tapes.

Need to see the CSX crews report of what happen.

Need to see what the dispatcher was trying to do.

Amtrak had there conductor in the cab to copy radio orders. Unlike they ahead of there warrants, but need to be checked.

A major detail, and more questions to be answered.

 

[JRR]

As I and others have said repeatedly, let’s wait for the facts to be determined before we speculate and assign blame.

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[neroden]

So the question remains whether they just happened to forget to realign the switch to the main or they were under the impression that giving up the warrant did not involve doing the switch realignment.

The first would mean that the CSX engineer and condutor, or their insurer, will be bankrupt; they don't have Amtrak indemnifying them. The second means that CSX would be in big trouble for improper training, or that the dispacher is at fault. Everything still points to gross negligence at CSX -- the protocols for this are *old* and deviation from them is supposed to be done with express written instructions, which clearly didn't happen.

Regarding legal liability, in a civil case the standard is usually "preponderance of the evidence", but for certain types of claims, "clear and convincing evidence" is needed. At this point I would say there is clear and convincing evidence that CSX is entirely responsible for the crash, and also that they were negligent. Whether CSX was grossly negligent (or reckless, or engaged in wanton or wilful misconduct) depends on whether they also acted in reckless disregard for the safety over others. That is disputable but we'll find out when we find out the details of the communications. If they are not in accordance with federal law -- for instance, if the form which says that the switch was relined was falsified, or the dispatcher issued movement authority without receiving confirmation that the switch was relined -- then that would probably indicate reckless disregard. If there's some sort of ambiguous statement made by the dispatcher or engineer which could be interpreted two ways and the person on the other end misinterpreted it, then I guess they might be able to defend against a gross negligence claim.

 

[Seaboard92]

Actually I'm pretty sure that crew was just going on duty. In normal operations that empty auto rack unit train departs between 91 and 92 every night. And the NTSB has previously said the train was put in the siding seven hours before. So that timeline makes sense to me who lives local.

Those CSX crew members reporting for duty need to buy a lottery ticket because they managed to get really lucky to escape with their lives.

 

[Blackwolf]

Actually I'm pretty sure that crew was just going on duty. In normal operations that empty auto rack unit train departs between 91 and 92 every night. And the NTSB has previously said the train was put in the siding seven hours before. So that timeline makes sense to me who lives local.

Those CSX crew members reporting for duty need to buy a lottery ticket because they managed to get really lucky to escape with their lives.

Only time, and a great deal of patience for the "system" to produce its investigative results, will give us the answer on what happened.

Was 91 running on-time that night, or was it behind schedule?

There is the possibility that the CSX crew present on the auto rack train were the ones who aligned the switch for the siding so they could depart, somehow under the impression they had clearance to do so and that 91 had already passed.

 

[jis]

Yup. Most prudent course now is to have patience. It is unlikely that any of us will get more and more accurate information than what the NTSB has access to.

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[west point]

Although not certain it appears the empty auto rack train was made up and ready for departure ? That would include brake test, fred installed and train walked ? Did the CSX crew make up the train or a previous crew ? Only time will tell ?

 

[Seaboard92]

The train was running 25 minutes late when it passed me who lives twenty minutes north of the crash site

But I'm serious when I was at the press briefing the ntsb chairman Zumwalt when asked by CBS news I believe how long the freight was there said seven hours. That is to the best of my recollection. Now I could do some snooping somewhat because this is my home division. But I prefer to stay out of active investigations that are none of my business.

If someone wants to come forward and tell me something I'll listen but I won't spread it. I know the signal maintainer for that line he makes the best BBQ in my town. And he's been closed ever since the wreck (he opened up a side business in the evenings). The only info I care about is what date the cars are leaving Columbia because I have a buyer for the photos of that move.

And the more money it raises the more I can donate to a charity. As far as writing up news articles I just report what the NTSB releases. There is nothing to investigate now. And I'm going to let the ntsb do their job. They can do a better job then any retired scholastic journalist who got called in to write and photograph for four major media outlets.

 

[JRR]

Amen!

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[Lonestar648]

Seems like every few days there are more "facts" released or discovered that change how we visualize what happened. None of us are patient, so we all try to find our own solution, which is usually wrong when more facts are released. Of course the ambulance chasing lawyers have already made their conclusions so they can sign up as many victims as possible. Only the NTSB probably knows what happened, but they are still investigating, so correctly, they release very little information.