Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[bonzoesc]

The curvature looks crazy in the pictures but actually it's quite moderate if you take into account how it is spread over a great length of rail.

Rail itself is that flexible.

This is why, when it's put down, it needs so many ties, and the ties are embedded in ballast. Without those ties, the rail wouldn't stay put for very long,

This video was low key a fascinating watch, seeing this huge machine pick up the rail and ties that the 35 ton machine is moving on to re-arrange the ballast rocks that hold it in place. Flexing the rail in its strong dimension, over the wheelbase of the machine even.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Looks like Florida is going to apply for $3B in grants from the FTA for Central Florida passenger rail projects. The money will also include building the Brightline route beyond Disney to Tampa. Brightline will contribute to the matching funds required for the federal grant.

Leaders put big ambitions for Central Florida passenger rail growth on paper

Excerpts from the Orlando Sentinel article linked above:

The white paper advances three options on how to turn the
transportation dream into a reality. The first two call for breaking
the rail expansion into separate pieces and steps. The third
option, and popular front-runner, calls for doing everything as an
approximately $6 billion project.

“We are pretty confident we are going to get about half of this $6
billion project,” [Rep. Darren] Soto said.

The funding formula widely anticipated, though not determined,
would have the federal government cover 50 percent, the state
paying for 25 percent and local partners, including Brightline and
Universal, on the hook for 25 percent.

“It will be in the form of multiple grants through the infrastructure
law,” Soto said of the federal contribution. “There is 10 years of
funding. I don’t expect there to be one big announcement – like
‘here is $3 billion.’"

 

[blueman271]

Looks like Florida is going to apply for $3B in grants from the FTA for Central Florida passenger rail projects. The money will also include building the Brightline route beyond Disney to Tampa. Brightline will contribute to the matching funds required for the federal grant.

Leaders put big ambitions for Central Florida passenger rail growth on paper

Excerpts from the Orlando Sentinel article linked above:

The white paper advances three options on how to turn the
transportation dream into a reality. The first two call for breaking
the rail expansion into separate pieces and steps. The third
option, and popular front-runner, calls for doing everything as an
approximately $6 billion project.

“We are pretty confident we are going to get about half of this $6
billion project,” [Rep. Darren] Soto said.

The funding formula widely anticipated, though not determined,
would have the federal government cover 50 percent, the state
paying for 25 percent and local partners, including Brightline and
Universal, on the hook for 25 percent.

“It will be in the form of multiple grants through the infrastructure
law,” Soto said of the federal contribution. “There is 10 years of
funding. I don’t expect there to be one big announcement – like
‘here is $3 billion.’"

I’m confused and I can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall. Are the taxpayers funding 75% of a project that will be mostly or entirely used by private businesses? That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I’m confused and I can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall. Are the taxpayers funding 75% of a project that will be mostly or entirely used by private businesses? That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.

The matching state and local funds are 50% of the total cost of the Sunshine Corridor plus the Brightline Phase 3 project to Tampa from Disney World area. I assume that whatever Brightline spends on the route west from Disney to Tampa (which could easily be 25% of $6B) will go towards the local portion of the matching funds required by the grant terms. Also, Brightline will be leasing the Sunshine Corridor for use by their trains between Disney area and MCO, so that is also a consideration here on who pays for what.

Unlike sports stadiums, infrastructure projects such as this do have a public utility to them. In this case, by building Brightline to Tampa the state saves money on expanding I-4 as well as making this area more liveable than it otherwise would be.

The projects that this grant money is for will not be used primarily by Brightline - it is going to also be SunRail's new east-west corridor between MCO and Disney.

I have requested a copy of the white paper that FDOT sent to the FTA to find out more about where the money will be spent.

PS: if your browser supports "reader mode" like Opera does, then you can bypass the firewall on this and other websites such as the NYT online version as well.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That seems like the funding formula professional sports teams use to milk taxpayer money out of cities and counties.

If tax money goes to sports stadiums why shouldn’t it go to transportation systems?

 

[blueman271]

If tax money goes to sports stadiums why shouldn’t it go to transportation systems?

Tax money should absolutely go to transportation systems. What it shouldn’t do is go to projects designed to enrich the few. If a significant portion of the price for the Tampa line is going to be borne by the taxpayers then an equal percentage of the profit needs to be returned to them in some form. If Brightline wants to be a private company they can build their railroad using private funds.

To be clear I am 100% for using tax money to fund public transit, schools, town centers, healthcare and really anything that serves the public good. I am against using tax money to build things like sports stadiums or “private” transportation systems that privatize their profits.

 

[cirdan]

Tax money should absolutely go to transportation systems. What it shouldn’t do is go to projects designed to enrich the few. If a significant portion of the price for the Tampa line is going to be borne by the taxpayers then an equal percentage of the profit needs to be returned to them in some form. If Brightline wants to be a private company they can build their railroad using private funds.

To be clear I am 100% for using tax money to fund public transit, schools, town centers, healthcare and really anything that serves the public good. I am against using tax money to build things like sports stadiums or “private” transportation systems that privatize their profits.

It's a complicated argument by my take is a bit like this.

When government funds something like education, you could argue the government is enabling people to get better jobs and earn more money and so the people who benefit from education should give that money back to the taxpayer.

But in some way they already do, because people with more education do typically make more salary and thus pay more taxes. So quite possibly this investment in education is producing a net positive taxflow for the government. Of course at the end of the day this depends on the quality and appropriateness of the education being offered.

Maybe it is similar with a rail link. The rail link itself may be operated privately. But the profit the operating company channels back to its shareholders totally pales to insignificance in front of the broader societal benefits of there being a rail service. Including congestion relief, environmental benefits and also people being more productive by being able to use their time more effectively.

There is in my view no reason that people shouldn't be allowed to do well by doing good.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Time to steer the discussion back to Brightline plans and execution and away from general taxation and funding philosophy.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[JWM]

I have to comment about the so-called curvature noted above. There is an old civil engineering term called "super elevation". My experience with it was on Seaboard's "Silver Meteor" in the 1960's. It was used to allow the "Meteor" and "Star" to take curves at higher speed. I remember once on the "Meteor" when it had to stop with the lounge car on a super elevated curve as we all grabbed out drinks before they ended up on the floor. At higher speed, nothing happened. Brightline will do fine so long as this old practice is updated and done right.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

I know a few years isn't a lot of time, but its incredible how quickly the second phase to Orlando has progressed. After all the remaining construction wraps up the testing phase will begin. Glad we're all here to see this.

private industry is pretty incredible sometimes

 

[VentureForth]

I was away on business for three weeks. Was excited to see the progress made. There is something on the entire roadbed now, even if nothing but ties. But I would guess less than three miles remain without rail and ballast in place.

Maybe just because it's wet from all the rain, but the ballast seems to be more of a red granite rock than white. Seemed darker than normal.

 

[Qapla]

Some of the newer ballast rock has come from Canada instead of Georgia - and it is a different color/shade

This was mentioned in the Roaming Railfan's videos

 

[jis]

Incidentally the new Birghtline trains come equipped with a combo setup at the doors which have traps. With the trap raised stairs deploy, and with the traps down and bridge plate deploys from the trap Kinda neat.

 

[joelkfla]

Incidentally the new Birghtline trains come equipped with a combo setup at the doors which have traps. With the trap raised stairs deploy, and with the traps down and bridge plate deploys from the trap Kinda neat.

Didn't know the Brightline cars even had steps. Does this include the original delivery, or just those for the SF extension?

 

[jis]

Didn't know the Brightline cars even had steps. Does this include the original delivery, or just those for the SF extension?

They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.

Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.

 

[jis]

The "under" view of a Brightline train.... Those of us that were equipped with safety helmets and glasses were allowed to go down into the pit at the OIA VMF (Vehicle Maintenance Facility).

The first one is fo a motor truck and the second is a view from under the locomotive looking towards the train. The underside is surprisingly uncluttered and smooth.

 

[joelkfla]

They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.

I thought the seats had just been reupholstered. Have they actually been replaced?

What's changed about the cabin layout?

 

[jis]

I thought the seats had just been reupholstered. Have they actually been replaced?

What's changed about the cabin layout?

They were all equipped with new seats from a different manufacturer apparently.

I am not sure what exactly changed in the cabins. Apparently had to do with installation of new partial partition plexigalss between two groups of 4 seats in the middle of the car and such. Minor changes. Nothing major. But naturally the seat numbering and layout are the same between the old and the new since they do not plan to complicate their seat allocation software to keep track of different train layouts if they can help it.

 

[joelkfla]

They were all equipped with new seats from a different manufacturer apparently.

I am not sure what exactly changed in the cabins. Apparently had to do with installation of new partial partition plexigalss between two groups of 4 seats in the middle of the car and such. Minor changes. Nothing major. But naturally the seat numbering and layout are the same between the old and the new since they do not plan to complicate their seat allocation software to keep track of different train layouts if they can help it.

Thx. I should probably take a drive down to WPB one of these days to check them out. (After I get my oil changed, which is way overdue.)

 

[west point]

Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.

Makes sense. That will certainly apply to any Amtrak cars.

 

[cirdan]

Some of the newer ballast rock has come from Canada instead of Georgia - and it is a different color/shade

This was mentioned in the Roaming Railfan's videos

I wonder what the motivation for that might be?

I can't imagine that bringing in rock from Canada is cheaper economically than using more local sources.

So maybe the Canadian rock has some other advantages?

 

[cirdan]

They will all get retrofitted with this setup. Not all doors have this but many do. All sets will run all over the system, so they will all look quite similar. Already the old sets have been outfitted with new seats and new cabin layout.

Apparently this is now viewed as a necessaryf eature to enable escape from trains staranded after grade crossing incidents and such.

Makes sense. I just wonder why they didn't do this from the start.

I was on a TGV once, many many years ago, that was stopped somewhere near Avignon far away from any station. The conductor announced there was a problem with the brakes and that they were attempting to fix this. More time passed and finally they announced the problem could not be repaired and we were being asked to leave the train. There was a contraption that the train staff assembled out of parts stored in one of the cars and that took some time to assemble as the staff had obviously not done it very often and were not sure which part went where. But finally it was put together and formed a flight of about four or five steps and a handrail on both sides that allowed us to get off the train and down onto the gravel. There was only one of these so the entire train had to get off through this one door. We were herded off the line and through a nearby gate in the security fence to what seemed to me to be an extensive area of concrete slabs between farmers' fields that had probably been created specifically for this purpose, as I could not imagine what other purpose it might have served. After some more waiting, a convoy of buses arrived to pick us up.

Having a trap and steps might have made that entire procedure faster and less painful.

Especially if you consider that in an alternative scenario might have been a fire on the train and you would have wanted to get people off quickly.

 

[joelkfla]

There was a contraption that the train staff assembled out of parts stored in one of the cars and that took some time to assemble as the staff had obviously not done it very often and were not sure which part went where. But finally it was put together and formed a flight of about four or five steps and a handrail on both sides that allowed us to get off the train and down onto the gravel.

That sounds like the portable stairs on the Acela. The instructions in the SSM for deploying it sound quite complicated.

 

[jis]

I wonder what the motivation for that might be?

I can't imagine that bringing in rock from Canada is cheaper economically than using more local sources.

So maybe the Canadian rock has some other advantages?

Labor shortage in GA caused the source in GA to be unable to meet the schedule requirements of Brightline by a very long shot. So they found someone else that could deliver on time and within their budget, whatever that is.

 

[Qapla]

the source in GA to be unable to meet the schedule requirements of Brightline

Yes, The Roaming Railfan explained that in the video where he talked about the ballast coming from Canada.