Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

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Unavailability of funding to be able to build a four track bridge and the new tunnels at the same time. Also a two track portal does not create show stopping congestion for the envisaged traffic for the next 15 years.
 
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Unavailability of funding to be able to build a four track bridge and the new tunnels at the same time. Also a two track portal does create show stopping congestion for the envisaged traffic for the next 15 years.
Where exactly is the second bridge supposed to be built? Can’t really find any maps online, but is it supposed to be built where the current bridge stands today while the portal north is being build slightly north of the current bridge? Or will this be more offset? Seems like the completion of both bridges will be equally as important as the new tunnels given capacity won’t increase without all of those projects being completed
 
Did you mean to have a "not" in there?
Yup. Fixed. Thanks.
Where exactly is the second bridge supposed to be built? Can’t really find any maps online, but is it supposed to be built where the current bridge stands today while the portal north is being build slightly north of the current bridge? Or will this be more offset? Seems like the completion of both bridges will be equally as important as the new tunnels given capacity won’t increase without all of those projects being completed
It will be south of the current bridge, and the current bridge will be dismantled, most likely after the South Portal is built.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.
 
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Yup. Fixed. Thanks.

It will be north of the current bridge.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.

Even if trans-hudson train ridership never returns to 2019 levels, new hudson tunnels are needed to provide a more resilient infrastructure and to provide redundancy during service outages.

Also, which one hour each weekday is Penn Station full? (7--8 am or 8--9 am in the morning and which afternoon hour are you referring to)?
 
Even if trans-hudson train ridership never returns to 2019 levels, new hudson tunnels are needed to provide a more resilient infrastructure and to provide redundancy during service outages.

Also, which one hour each weekday is Penn Station full? (7--8 am or 8--9 am in the morning and which afternoon hour are you referring to)?
No one has suggested that the new tunnels are not needed. Why are you shadow boxing that point? 🤔

Also nothing has been said about Penn Station being full.
 
I should have used the word throughput since I was talking about flow rates on the Portal Bridge. The blockage is not due to platform occupancy but due to congestion at the western throat caused by conflicting moves that will be reduced with additional platforms on the south side. The full 26tph is barely used over a 60-70 minute window in the 7am to 9am period AFAIR.
 
For a long time I could not understand the building of Portal South. That was my mistake. It appears from what I have seen that there is not space south of the present swing bridge to build the second bridge. So what appears to be the plan is once Portal North is fully operational the swing bridge will be removed and Portal south will then be built on the swing bridge's alignment.

North of the North Portal bridge does not have space to build a 4 track bridge. Remember PATH's Harrison station is having to be moved north as much as possible to just clear Portal North's 2 tracks.

What the plans are for financing is left to the future. Since Portal south will have ramps rising to make freeboard clearances the slopped grades will be quite a bit wider at the base than at the track level.
 
North of the North Portal bridge does not have space to build a 4 track bridge. Remember PATH's Harrison station is having to be moved north as much as possible to just clear Portal North's 2 tracks.
PATH's Harrison station, which is miles away from Portal, has no relevance to the Portal Bridge. The Portal Bridge tracks pretty much join the original alignment by Swift interlocking. Even the additional tracks after Portal South is constructed, all are slated to fit within the Amtrak RoW in the Swift area, and most certainly through Hudson Yard west of Swift.

In Harrison station the eastbound PATH track will need to be moved in order to make room for track 4, but that has nothing to do with the Portal project or the location of the Portal North bridge.
 
Yup. Fixed. Thanks.

It will be north of the current bridge.

Effective capacity will actually increase even without the new bridge simply because of removal of congestion at A interlocking. At present A interlocking is the blocking factor, not the two track infrastructure west of it. The second set of tunnels will alleviate that to a large extent.

As I said before, the additional capacity will be needed in 15 years when additional platform capacity becomes available at Penn Station, hopefully. As it stands even now, full capacity is needed for only one hour each way each day.

One unknown is whether demand for peak traffic will grow as was projected before given the nature of office usage as it changes following the COVID experience. That is currently an unknown. If peak hour demand does not grow as fast as was projected then growing facilities to support such need not take place as fast either.
So this tunnel project along with the renovations to Penn Station (Penn South) include the removal of the bottleneck found in A Interlocking?
And one other question, is the eventual result of this project that Amtrak will use Penn South, while NJT and LIRR would utilize the same platforms that they do today? Or will there be a shuffling of platforms for each transit agency. Sorry for the avalanche but doesnt seem very easy to find details on these things via some puffed up press release materials
 
PATH's Harrison station, which is miles away from Portal, has no relevance to the Portal Bridge. The Portal Bridge tracks pretty much join the original alignment by Swift interlocking. Even the additional tracks after Portal South is constructed, all are slated to fit within the Amtrak RoW in the Swift area, and most certainly through Hudson Yard west of Swift.

In Harrison station the eastbound PATH track will need to be moved in order to make room for track 4, but that has nothing to do with the Portal project or the location of the Portal North bridge.
Is that required relocation of the eastbound PATH track included in any of the funded/active projects ongoing? Because didn't they just build a brand new PATH station there? Looking at a map, you are correct in pointing out that at Harrison there seems to be a pinch and I don't know how they would plan on having 4 tracks + 2 path tracks without either repo'ing track between agencies and building a new one or some other major lift
 
The GDC is looking at potentially moving some parts of The Hudson Tunnel Project forward before a FFGA gets signed.

I wonder if it would make sense to have the third section of The Hudson Yards Concrete Casing move ahead first. What do you folks think?
 
The GDC is looking at potentially moving some parts of The Hudson Tunnel Project forward before a FFGA gets signed.

I wonder if it would make sense to have the third section of The Hudson Yards Concrete Casing move ahead first. What do you folks think?
What's a GDC? What's a FFGA?

Please don't use these acronyms that are not likely to be known by the majority of us. Everyone here is not a transit professional, and these terms are not included in Commonly Used Abbreviations and Terms
 
What's a GDC? What's a FFGA?

Please don't use these acronyms that are not likely to be known by the majority of us. Everyone here is not a transit professional, and these terms are not included in Commonly Used Abbreviations and Terms
GDC = Gateway Development Commission
FFGA = Full Funding Grant Agreement

Now added to the Abbreviations list.
 
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Everything IMO that can be moved ahead is excellent. Some of the preliminary itens can take alot of time. Especially the utility relocations ( remember the water line for Portal north ). Verticle ventilation shafts can take longeer times as well.
 
Everything IMO that can be moved ahead is excellent. Some of the preliminary itens can take alot of time. Especially the utility relocations ( remember the water line for Portal north ). Verticle ventilation shafts can take longeer times as well.

The Gateway Development Commission is now looking at both accelerating the Tonnelle Avenue Underpass and the third section of The Hudson Yards Concrete Casing.

If the Tonnelle Avenue Underpass gets built, why not build the approach structures from Secaucus Junction as well?
 
The Gateway Development Commission is now looking at both accelerating the Tonnelle Avenue Underpass and the third section of The Hudson Yards Concrete Casing.

If the Tonnelle Avenue Underpass gets built, why not build the approach structures from Secaucus Junction as well?
Only someone with inside knowledge of the decision making process within GDC can answer that question. I am not aware of any member of AU with such inside access.
 
The Gateway Development Commission is now looking at both accelerating the Tonnelle Avenue Underpass and the third section of The Hudson Yards Concrete Casing.
That makes one wonder what has happened to make plans to accelerate the work. Maybe Amtrak has determined that the present bores are worse off than it originally thought? Do not really think that a possibility but who knows?
 
That makes one wonder what has happened to make plans to accelerate the work. Maybe Amtrak has determined that the present bores are worse off than it originally thought? Do not really think that a possibility but who knows?
Maybe something as simple as having the design, permits and materials available for those pieces.
 
So this tunnel project along with the renovations to Penn Station (Penn South) include the removal of the bottleneck found in A Interlocking?
And one other question, is the eventual result of this project that Amtrak will use Penn South, while NJT and LIRR would utilize the same platforms that they do today? Or will there be a shuffling of platforms for each transit agency. Sorry for the avalanche but doesnt seem very easy to find details on these things via some puffed up press release materials

Roughly speaking, LIRR will continue to use the traacks that they use now. Amtrak will continue to use the tracks they use now, except trains that terminate in NYP which may use the south side terminating tracks. NJT will mostly use the new South side plus the the south side existing through tracks for those trains that are to be stabled in Sunnyside. Al lot of trains will be NJT empties will be stabled in a new yard to be built in the Jersey Meadows after getting backed out through the new tunnels during rush hours in the morning, and empties will be pulled in from that yard in the evening, in addition to those to and from Sunnyside.

Is that required relocation of the eastbound PATH track included in any of the funded/active projects ongoing? Because didn't they just build a brand new PATH station there? Looking at a map, you are correct in pointing out that at Harrison there seems to be a pinch and I don't know how they would plan on having 4 tracks + 2 path tracks without either repo'ing track between agencies and building a new one or some other major lift
The brand new PATH station is built with accommodation for such a move in the future. Both Amtrak and PATH have it in their plans. Funding will come from future Gateway pot, possibly together with the second Portal bridge and quad tracking through CP Swift all the way to CP Dock.
 
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