Amtrak dining and cafe service

zephyr17 said:

BTW, I retract my comment that these were the best Amtrak combined food service/lounge cars. I has forgotten the Hi Level diners that Amtrak converted to diner lounges in the 80s that ran on the Desert Wind. Those were very well designed.

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They had the "mafia" style booths that nobody liked in the CCC! (and they continued to have them as PPC cars).

crescent-zephyr said:

They had the "mafia" style booths that nobody liked in the CCC! (and they continued to have them as PPC cars).

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I wasn't referring to the PPC's. Those were created from the Hi Level Top 'O the Cap lounge cars. Not the Hi Level dining cars.

I was referring to the diner lounges converted from the Hi Level dining cars in the 1980s, long before the advent of the PPCs and when the lounge cars destined to be PPCs were still running, largely unconverted, in lounge service, mainly on the Sunset. Those diner lounges, converted from dining not lounge cars, were retired, put out of service during the Mercer cuts at the latest and were gone before the PPCs were a gleam in Brian Rosenwald's eyes.

The Hi Level diners lounge conversions did not have "mafia style" tables. The PPCs did, mid car, but those are not the cars I am referring to. At all.

zephyr17 said:

The Hi Level diners lounge conversions did not have "mafia style" tables. The PPCs did, mid car, but those are not the cars I am referring to. At all.

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Ahh that's right. I was like 5 when I rode those things... my memory is a little fuzzy. haha.

All the photos on Google are of the Hi-Level lounges in various configurations - couldn't find any photos. I remember it was kind of cafeteria style, wasn't it? What type of seating did it have?

crescent-zephyr said:

Ahh that's right. I was like 5 when I rode those things... my memory is a little fuzzy. haha.

All the photos on Google are of the Hi-Level lounges in various configurations - couldn't find any photos. I remember it was kind of cafeteria style, wasn't it? What type of seating did it have?

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Yeah, they kind of had a cafeteria style counter and it had been intended that the passenger might have pushed a tray selecting items, but they never did it that way. Dining was always normal table service. The servers sometimes used it.

I was in my late 20s and early 30s and rode the Desert Wind several times when those cars were in service on it. My recollection of them is quite clear. It had largely 4 top booths, but there was couch type seating, too, IIRC.

My main objection was I recall they had kind of a mustard based color scheme that wasn't very attractive.

I've never come across an interior shot of them, either. I didn't take any myself.

zephyr17 said:

Yeah, they kind of had a cafeteria style counter and it had been intended that the passenger might have pushed a tray selecting items, but they never did it that way. Dining was always normal table service. The servers sometimes used it.

I was in my late 20s and early 30s and rode the Desert Wind several times when those cars were in service on it. My recollection of them is quite clear. It had largely 4 top booths, but there was couch type seating, too, IIRC.

My main objection was I recall they had kind of a mustard based color scheme that wasn't very attractive.

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I think they actually did use the tray service on the Texas Eagle... again I was like 5 but it's in my memory somewhere! haha.

crescent-zephyr said:

I think they actually did use the tray service on the Texas Eagle... again I was like 5 but it's in my memory somewhere! haha.

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I only rode it in Desert Wind service and they never did on that.

zephyr17 said:

I has forgotten the Hi Level diners that Amtrak converted to diner lounges in the 80s that ran on the Desert Wind. Those were very well designed.

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They were great and lent themselves to some creative meal options not seen on other diners at the time. IIRC they were the only bi-levels with 3-axle trucks.

crescent-zephyr said:

They had the "mafia" style booths that nobody liked in the CCC!

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Out of curiosity what are "mafia" style booths and how do they differ from non-Mafia style?

AmtrakMaineiac said:

Out of curiosity what are "mafia" style booths and how do they differ from non-Mafia style?

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I think someone explained it earlier, but I can’t find the post. I think it means seating where you can’t see what (or perhaps, more pertinent in the underworld, who) might be behind you.

If you are seated in a restaurant with your back to the door, you are obviously at a disadvantage if one of your enemies shows up.

In a gentler world, I believe feng shui has you position your furniture where you are not sitting with your back to the door (for perfect energy flow or something).

Not being an expert on either the underworld (thank goodness) or feng shui, I’m just guessing that a CCC seat where you don’t have a view of what’s around you might feel uncomfortable. I’ve never been in a CCC so can’t say firsthand.

The CCC cars originally had a mix of traditional dining car booths and curved booths. This wasn't unique to the CCC cars, the Parlour cars also had this type of booth and there were also pre-amtrak dining car designs where guests were seated facing away from the windows. I was seated in this type of booth on the Capitol and it was fine but many people didn't like them and before long Amtrak converted the cars to have all traditional style booths in the dining room area.

Once upon a time lounge seating was focused more on facilitating socializing than sightseeing.

crescent-zephyr said:

They had the "mafia" style booths that nobody liked in the CCC! (and they continued to have them as PPC cars).

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The Regular Dining Tables on the PPCs had Very Limited Space between the Table and the Seat, so some Larger Folks were forced to sit @ the Mafia Style Seats ( with Small Bar type Tables) in order to eat in the PPC.

I never saw anyone eating in the Swivel Lounge Chairs, but people did "Camp Out" in them, making it difficult to find one Open during the Daby!

Mystic River Dragon said:

I think someone explained it earlier, but I can’t find the post. I think it means seating where you can’t see what (or perhaps, more pertinent in the underworld, who) might be behind you.

If you are seated in a restaurant with your back to the door, you are obviously at a disadvantage if one of your enemies shows up.

In a gentler world, I believe feng shui has you position your furniture where you are not sitting with your back to the door (for perfect energy flow or something).

Not being an expert on either the underworld (thank goodness) or feng shui, I’m just guessing that a CCC seat where you don’t have a view of what’s around you might feel uncomfortable. I’ve never been in a CCC so can’t say firsthand.

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Just the opposite. It's sitting with your back to the wall (or in this case, the window), so that you can see who's coming at you. They were talking about the semi-circular 3-seater booths, where the center person sits facing the aisle.

But of course, in the movies, a Mafia don would never sit with his back to a window, so it's not really an apt analogy.

joelkfla said:

Just the opposite. It's sitting with your back to the wall (or in this case, the window), so that you can see who's coming at you. They were talking about the semi-circular 3-seater booths, where the center person sits facing the aisle.

But of course, in the movies, a Mafia don would never sit with his back to a window, so it's not really an apt analogy.

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Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying it.

Mailliw said:

Once upon a time lounge seating was focused more on facilitating socializing than sightseeing.

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Correct, the majority of historic lounge cars have seats that face inwards toward the car. I'm pretty certain that Amtrak's Sight-seer Lounge car was one of the first cars to have all seating facing outwards (later they added several booths upstairs but originally it was all lounge chairs facing out).

I don't understand why amtrak doesn't get more credit for some really great passenger train designs. The Amtrak CCC, Sightseer Loung, PPC, and Viewliner II Dining cars are really well-designed cars.

What's great about the CCC car is that it can easily function as a cafe-lounge, a full-service diner, or a Diner-Lounge. I find it more attractive than the traditional Amtrak Superliner Diner as well.

Devil's Advocate said:

Where I live Amtrak sleeper service is a product for retired Boomers with the odd Gen X here and there. In the US Amtrak sleepers are the most expensive way to travel via scheduled carrier service, both in terms of time and money, and they're only getting slower and more expensive over time.


This sounds a lot like The Canadian, where the views are indeed gorgeous but glowing reviews tend to gloss over questionable service standards.

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I just turned 40. I live in North Carolina and my parents live in Tampa FL. I have taken the Silver Star from FL to NC a few times. It is a 10-hour drive that chews up a whole day. The train is convenient because it leaves Tampa at 5 PM and arrives in NC at 8 AM. I get most of both days instead of wasting a whole day in the car alone. I get on, have supper, relax, sleep, wake up, have breakfast, get off, and go home or wherever. It is about $300 one way in the sleeper. It is pricey but a plane ticket is about $150. Which ends up chewing up most of a day anyways. Even though 40 is not being a kid anymore I do still feel relatively "old" in the sleepers/dining. Although I have seen quite a few people I would bet were under 50. Pre-Covid when we had traditional sit-down dining I was often placed with older people at the table and then being mid-30s or younger I was always a bit of a curiosity for the table mates. "Is this your first time?" "Where are you going? Coming from?" The day trains have a lot of younger people on them much like riding the bus a much more eclectic crowd and I expect a bit downmarket as well on some city-to-city routes. It's still fun though. I am outgoing and enjoy talking to people but in the end you are there for you and it is you that is enjoying the amenities, food, and sleeper compartment.

I used to like the 3100 series Heritage lounge cars, that were converted from former Army Hospital cars. Other than their relative lack of windows at one end, they offered a very nice cafeteria counter at one end, followed by some booth seating, and then a mix of single swivel and double fixed lounge seating on the other end. Some even contained an upright piano…

I'm wondering if they're going to "refresh" or change the "flex meals" menu on the Eastern leg of the Eagle, like, ever again?

I don't think we're getting "real" dining back. I'm a pessimist but it looks like they've realized people will eat it and they're still running full sleepers. I have a trip planned in May and while, yeah, the ziti and meatballs are tolerable, I grow weary of the same choices - I know these were the choices in March (when I traveled last), and I think in December and in November before that.

I don't travel frequently but MAN if I were taking the Eagle on the regular - like if my mom were unwell and I had to go up there every month - I'd be irritated at the lack of options (I tried the chicken alla rosa, it was blah both times, I suspect the beef short rib thing has got too much carrot contact for my food sensitivities, as do the Thai noodles).

I mean, I'm not upset about it enough to inconvenience myself more by, I don't know, taking a small cooler with my own food on board but....it does make traveling a bit less nice

fillyjonk said:

I'm wondering if they're going to "refresh" or change the "flex meals" menu on the Eastern leg of the Eagle, like, ever again?

I don't think we're getting "real" dining back. I'm a pessimist but it looks like they've realized people will eat it and they're still running full sleepers. I have a trip planned in May and while, yeah, the ziti and meatballs are tolerable, I grow weary of the same choices - I know these were the choices in March (when I traveled last), and I think in December and in November before that.

I don't travel frequently but MAN if I were taking the Eagle on the regular - like if my mom were unwell and I had to go up there every month - I'd be irritated at the lack of options (I tried the chicken alla rosa, it was blah both times, I suspect the beef short rib thing has got too much carrot contact for my food sensitivities, as do the Thai noodles).

I mean, I'm not upset about it enough to inconvenience myself more by, I don't know, taking a small cooler with my own food on board but....it does make traveling a bit less nice

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Totally get your point, but honestly this is still an issue even with the traditional dining trains.

I believe they changed the flex menu last summer (the vegan nooodles was one of the new entrees).

The traditional dining menu was also last changed around June ‘22. Even though those entrees are much more tolerable, I could imagine one might get bored of them pretty quickly if they were a regular rider.

The Eagle may not get traditional dining for a while, but the fact they are adding
it back on the silvers, and are working to do the same on the crescent, is promising.

trimetbusfan said:

...., and are working to do the same on the crescent, is promising.

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Please expand on this statement, and your information source. I'm reserved on the Crescent 5/11 and 5/15. I would love to think that I might have a seat in a diner with table mates, as I enjoyed for 35 years, until Flex.

Hytec said:

Please expand on this statement, and your information source. I'm reserved on the Crescent 5/11 and 5/15. I would love to think that I might have a seat in a diner with table mates, as I enjoyed for 35 years, until Flex.

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I believe Amtrak's executives have said quite explicitly that real dining won't return to anything other than the Florida trains before the end of the current fiscal year, which runs through Sept. 30. So don't get your hopes up for a trip next month on the Crescent. On the plus side, the initial reports I've read about the Silver Star dining have been quite good, so at least it does allow me to imagine wanting to travel on some of the eastern overnights at some future time.

trimetbusfan said:

The traditional dining menu was also last changed around June ‘22. Even though those entrees are much more tolerable, I could imagine one might get bored of them pretty quickly if they were a regular rider.

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I feel like this is approaching an unreasonable request personally. In order for the dining cars to be operated efficiently, they need to have a fairly small menu with entrees that will please the majority of passengers. In order to do that, there needs to be a steak, grilled or rotisserie chicken, grilled fish, and a vegetarian option. So there isn't too much room for rotating menu items.

The VAST majority of Amtrak long-distance passengers are not regular riders and would not get tired of those options.

If the existing crew could handle 1 rotating dinner special, that would be ideal, and perhaps the special could change seasonally and from region to region on the different trains. (This was the case in the past when the wonderful Lamb Shank, Crab Cakes, and Buffalo Meatloaf were offered on various trains. ) But beyond that a simple menu like they have now is quite ideal.

crescent-zephyr said:

I feel like this is approaching an unreasonable request personally. In order for the dining cars to be operated efficiently, they need to have a fairly small menu with entrees that will please the majority of passengers. In order to do that, there needs to be a steak, grilled or rotisserie chicken, grilled fish, and a vegetarian option. So there isn't too much room for rotating menu items.

The VAST majority of Amtrak long-distance passengers are not regular riders and would not get tired of those options.

If the existing crew could handle 1 rotating dinner special, that would be ideal, and perhaps the special could change seasonally and from region to region on the different trains. (This was the case in the past when the wonderful Lamb Shank, Crab Cakes, and Buffalo Meatloaf were offered on various trains. ) But beyond that a simple menu like they have now is quite ideal.

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The Canadian has no problem rotating their menu over the 4 nights of each trip. Perhaps the American market prefers steak over the pork, lamb, and prime rib options, but there are a variety of fishes with a variety of presentations, and there are virtually endless variations of chicken and pasta dishes.

crescent-zephyr said:

I feel like this is approaching an unreasonable request personally. In order for the dining cars to be operated efficiently, they need to have a fairly small menu with entrees that will please the majority of passengers. In order to do that, there needs to be a steak, grilled or rotisserie chicken, grilled fish, and a vegetarian option. So there isn't too much room for rotating menu items.

The VAST majority of Amtrak long-distance passengers are not regular riders and would not get tired of those options.

If the existing crew could handle 1 rotating dinner special, that would be ideal, and perhaps the special could change seasonally and from region to region on the different trains. (This was the case in the past when the wonderful Lamb Shank, Crab Cakes, and Buffalo Meatloaf were offered on various trains. ) But beyond that a simple menu like they have now is quite ideal.

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Agreed!
I don’t understand how people that ride even as often as “once a month” can complain about the menu choices.
How many of them don’t repeat their dinners at home at least that often?

joelkfla said:

The Canadian has no problem rotating their menu over the 4 nights of each trip. Perhaps the American market prefers steak over the pork, lamb, and prime rib options, but there are a variety of fishes with a variety of presentations, and there are virtually endless variations of chicken and pasta dishes.

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The Canadian has a larger dining car staff.