Long distance survey

I had a few laughs looking at the screenshots of the survey that had been posted earlier. Some of the scenarios described routes that would only run three days a week. In others, the on-time performance was 55%.

When they provided a SlumberCoach-type sleeper option, the pricing was multiple times that of a coach seat, which runs counter to the actual SlumberCoach philosophy of providing sleeper space at a relatively modest upcharge over coach. It's one of the reasons they were so popular.

There is such a thing as a "push poll", in which the survey is presented in such a way as to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion. I'm not saying that is the case here...necessarily, but.....

MisterUptempo said:

I had a few laughs looking at the screenshots of the survey that had been posted earlier. Some of the scenarios described routes that would only run three days a week. In others, the on-time performance was 55%.

When they provided a SlumberCoach-type sleeper option, the pricing was multiple times that of a coach seat, which runs counter to the actual SlumberCoach philosophy of providing sleeper space at a relatively modest upcharge over coach. It's one of the reasons they were so popular.

There is such a thing as a "push poll", in which the survey is presented in such a way as to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion. I'm not saying that is the case here...necessarily, but.....

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I honestly didn't consider OTP as a major factor, partly because there is a heck of a difference between "the train may run an hour late" (which I accommodate even with an airline ticket, or with driving) and "the train may run six hours late". I also didn't seriously weigh the bus (except the sleeper bus option, but that faltered on travel time), flying (since flying always implied coach - I will spring for first class on an airline but I won't seriously consider coach), or railroad coach ("enhanced coach" my [bleep]). The "shared space" didn't impact me much, though the prospect of an on-board gym space rates poorly with me...and I'd note that a few of the other space types could plausibly be merged/dual-purposed.

I was also annoyed at the lack of an option for the lie-flat seat with the ability to buy a meal in the diner. That seriously shot my willingness to consider that - notably, the equivalent accommodation in Queensland (the RailBed) comes with meals included.

Here are the survey's price points (for a single traveler, 501-1000 miles):

As a general feedback point, they were trying to test too much at once, and throwing in options that some folks wouldn't consider. As indicated, a few options were "out" for me; there are folks for which driving is a non-starter as well. I don't begrudge seeing "Will you move out from what you said you'd consider" once or twice, but they wasted a lot of space on that.

(1) I ignored the bus (because there were two products and I didn't want to waste two columns). FWIW, the Sleeper Bus option showed up:
-In Scenario 2, at $140
-In Scenario 8, at $110 (I vaguely pondered this one, but driving won out)
-In Scenario 11, at $110 (ditto)
-In Scenario 12, at $160 (vs a 2x/daily Slumbercoach at $334, no contest for the train)
-In Scenario 15, at $130 (vs a 3x/weekly train, I think driving won out)
-In Scenario 16, at $150 (vs a daily lie-flat at $311, I think the train won out)

(2) I assumed this was for a one-way trip. Those ticket prices for the airline ticket aren't even in the same ballpark as what I usually see for a coach ticket. With two exceptions ($228 and $231), those "legacy airline" ticket prices are in the same ballpark as I pay for a one-way ticket in First Class on Delta. Ironically, had they actually been in touch with reality on that and marked the "Airplane Legacy" line as First Class, it would probably have won in about 6-8 cases (mostly knocking driving out of consideration, but also probably knocking out the lie-flat-with-no-diner-access and the $900-ish roomette and anything above that price point).

(3) The airline options really only differed in terms of legroom. Per above - none of them ever landed in the ballpark of a First offering (34 inches was the most legroom I saw). I cannot see considering coach on a "low cost" carrier.

(4) As to the train options:
-It did not seem that they weighed "Which options would you seriously consider for a trip of this length/nature?" or adapt the options to "Is this one person traveling or two?" They literally spent nearly half of the train "slots" (22/48) on accommodations that I wouldn't seriously entertain as an option for an overnight trip. I'm less judgmental about them testing out the bedroom on a solo traveler as much as they did (at the lowest price points, I'd consider it), but the "fancy sleeper" spaces just don't fit for a single traveler. There was not even a solo-oriented luxury space...I probably would consider a somewhat-enlarged roomette, with something approaching a full twin bed Murphy bed, under some circumstances...I'm not spending $1900-3600 on a queen bed for one night, but you might get me at $1500 for two nights with all F&B included if I'm feeling splurge-y [or I need the spend for status]. Having said that...
-->One thing to note is that the fancier "luxury rooms" price in for more than slapping a PV onto the train. If I'm going to spend $6000/person on a trip, I'm going to get a few other people together and hire a car (and a chef). Borden Black or Jonathan Hinely could both put together an excellent menu (food and drink) for me if I'm sharing a car at that price point, and with 4-6 folks on board the overall price-per-person would probably be quite a bit less, the bar would be stocked to spec, and frankly we'd probably have the meals properly paired with wine.
-They also did not consider that "one day" is not the same as "one night" - on an all-day leg, yes, I might entertain coach. On an all-night leg? Ha! Ha! Ha! Good one, Amtrak! What's your next joke?
-They also didn't get to the prospect of being able to purchase diner meals in non-sleeper accommodations until a later question. That weighed against the lie-flat. When they did ask, it was "Would you pay $40 for lunch or dinner? Would you pay $20?" Uh...I'd pay $40 for dinner. Not for lunch (or breakfast). Those are not the same meal(s).
-The 3x/weekly train bit is also complicated to weigh. "Which day is the train running?" is the big question there - I have taken the Cardinal to Cincy and I did take the Sunset to Tucson, but only because it was running on the "right" day(s). If the less-than-daily train fits my schedule, I'll take it. If not, nope, not bending my schedule to "fit the train".

(5) As I said...I didn't weigh the cost of driving (as indicated) since, quite frankly, the included costs aren't even in the same universe as my driving costs: FIrst, I know what kind of gas my car uses and how much it uses, thank you very much - there is no scenario this side of 2020 where the "actual" cost of me driving to Florida is less than about $200 one-way - the gas alone is generally going to run me $200-250. In an "expensive gas" scenario (e.g. when the whole mess broke out last spring), I'd be looking at $250-300 for fuel (and so the practical cost of driving starts closing in on $400). Second, if you're trying to impose a "cost of driving" on me that has certain implications for what I am driving, and if you're going to force me to choose between "Overpriced train ticket", "Crammed into coach on an airplane/bus", or "Driving an econobox", I might just choose "Would not take this trip". Interpreting Scenario 5 accordingly (I assume that "generic" fuel scenario would have put me at about $400 one-way before accounting for an overnight en route), assuming an overnight train ride, would actually probably result in declining to take the trip based on the provided options and no alternatives (though if you put a gun to my head, I might have taken the train coach ticket).
-I realize that people have trouble interpreting the cost of gas onto their car, but asking "What sort of car do you primarily use for roadtrips (if any)?" and then adjusting the roadtrip cost might have helped produce more realistic numbers here. I realize that I drive an unusually inefficient car, but it's not that much worse than most of the larger SUVs or some of your overdone sports cars out there.

Anderson said:

Here are the survey's price points (for a single traveler, 501-1000 miles):

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That mileage range includes Orlando to Washington (but not to NYP), and Chicago from Washington or NYP.

Chicago to any West Coast city is over 2,000 mi.

(Talking road miles on Google Maps.)

joelkfla said:

That mileage range includes Orlando to Washington (but not to NYP), and Chicago from Washington or NYP.

Chicago to any West Coast city is over 2,000 mi.

(Talking road miles on Google Maps.)

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This is about dead on. Notably, NYP-CHI is under 1000 miles via the Lake Shore Limited (or a theoretical Broadway Limited) but over it via the Cardinal. I forget where a Pennsylvanian-Capitol Limited/NER-Capitol Limited combo (in terms of routing) comes in. NYP-ATL is under, NYP/WAS-NOL is over.

Basically, 501-1000 is mostly either a "short overnight" or a long-skewing day train (at an average speed of 50-60 MPH, you can plausibly get about 750-900 miles during the "day"), but at the low end it's clearly within "day train" range while at the high end it almost forces either an overnight or an awful time at one endpoint or the other.

I check my spam folder daily (sometimes multiple times), and move items out of spam I want to keep, but haven't seen the survey yet. (Just-turned-"seasoned citizen"-used to ride the EB and the Illini back in college-trip booked on the CZ for this fall-railfan here.)

pennyk said:

Today I received an email in my spam folder regarding a long distance survey from Northstar/HarrisX on behalf of Amtrak valuedopinions reading as follows:

Dear Penny,
As Amtrak is contemplating important changes to its Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles), we are now turning to our customers to help us better understand your experiences with our Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles) so that we can determine what amenities and offerings to include in the future. Northstar Research/HarrisX, an opinion research group, is conducting a survey to that end.

Because we value your insights and opinions, you have been selected to participate in this research study. Your comments in this survey are confidential and are extremely important to all of us at Amtrak.

We invite you to submit your feedback by April 21st, 2023, at the following link:



Please note that this survey must be taken on a laptop/desktop/tablet because sketches/drawings of future amenities will be presented. It is NOT compatible with mobile devices. It should take approximately 20 minutes of your time to complete.

Receive 1000 Amtrak Guest Rewards points as our thanks for completing the survey. Bonus points will be awarded within 4-6 weeks. You must be an Amtrak Guest Rewards member to receive the points and your email address must match the address associated with your member account. If you are not yet a member, learn more and join the program at Amtrak.com/guestrewards.

Your feedback is crucial in helping us improve our service to you. We sincerely appreciate your time. We thank you for your continued ridership and look forward to welcoming you on board again soon.

Sincerely,

Amtrak Market Research & Analysis Department

30th & Market Streets, Mailbox #11

Philadelphia, PA 19104



anyone else receive this email? thouoghts as to whether it is legitimate or spam?

Thanks.

​

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I didn't get this survey. Is there anyway I could find it because I could use a thousand reward points?

My feelings are hurt. I'm Select Executive for 3 years straight, all on long distance trains, and have 101,000 points. But no survey. Hmmph.

Keith1951 said:

I didn't get this survey. Is there anyway I could find it because I could use a thousand reward points?

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By "invitation"...

MccfamschoolMom said:

I check my spam folder daily (sometimes multiple times), and move items out of spam I want to keep, but haven't seen the survey yet. (Just-turned-"seasoned citizen"-used to ride the EB and the Illini back in college-trip booked on the CZ for this fall-railfan here.)

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I never check my SPAM folder. After glancing at it today I’m glad it’s provided. Whatever the letters SPAM mean it’s in there. Didn’t notice a survey having to do with train travel.

I took this survey earlier this week. A lot of you have already mentioned the same things that I thought about the survey. I took screenshots of almost every page, which might be of interest to those who didn't get the invite to the survey.

The new interior accommodation concepts can be found here:
https://harrisx.decipherinc.com/sur...64/New_Product_Description_21_March_2023.html
This might be a temporary link, so I've also attached it as a PDF.

Also, here is an example of one of the 16 combinations they want us to wade through. My most recent trip was a trip for two between 1000 to 2000 miles, so this is what was presented to me for all 16 pages. There was no "I wouldn't choose any of these because they're all either unappealing or too expensive" choice.

hmy1 said:

I took this survey earlier this week. A lot of you have already mentioned the same things that I thought about the survey. I took screenshots of almost every page, which might be of interest to those who didn't get the invite to the survey.

The new interior accommodation concepts can be found here:
https://harrisx.decipherinc.com/sur...64/New_Product_Description_21_March_2023.html
This might be a temporary link, so I've also attached it as a PDF.

Also, here is an example of one of the 16 combinations they want us to wade through. My most recent trip was a trip for two between 1000 to 2000 miles, so this is what was presented to me for all 16 pages. There was no "I wouldn't choose any of these because they're all either unappealing or too expensive" choice.

View attachment 32150

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Interesting. My survey had only options of 55% on-time trains (likely between St Paul and Chicago) and 90% on time between MSP and Chicago. Obviously, the better option is the plane for half the price over the $100+ for the 55% on-time train. I don't know how they are going to use this data, but it makes me nervous. The prices presented for the coach and rooms began at $220 and the train for $140.

bptenor said:

I don't know how they are going to use this data, but it makes me nervous.

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What I am wondering, is how much did it cost them, to take this survey?

railiner said:

What I am wondering, is how much did it cost them, to take this survey?

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Notwithstanding the cost, I think it is a good thing that they are at least trying to solicit opinions from the riding public as opposed to just running on the personal tastes of a few in the smoke-filled room as has been the case in the past. Of course just because they asked does not mean they will actually listen. What they do with the collected information remains to be seen.

I think Amtrak should work on providing its current service well before it tries to add luxury rooms at ridiculous prices.

You can’t jump from kindergarten (about where Amtrak is compared to the rest of the world in train service) to college without putting in the work in the intermediate grades.

Also, anyone who is going to shell out $3,000 will take the Canadian or perhaps a Panama Canal cruise to get across the country. And nobody is going to pay $900 to go 500 miles in a roomette.

Mystic River Dragon said:

I think Amtrak should work on providing its current service well before it tries to add luxury rooms at ridiculous prices.

You can’t jump from kindergarten (about where Amtrak is compared to the rest of the world in train service) to college without putting in the work in the intermediate grades.

Also, anyone who is going to shell out $3,000 will take the Canadian or perhaps a Panama Canal cruise to get across the country. And nobody is going to pay $900 to go 500 miles in a roomette.

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But they're preparing to request bids on new equipment now. It's now or never (in this case, never being 30 years or so.)

One problem with this particular type of survey is that people often answer inconsistently from example to example. Sometimes that is a product of not reading all the options thoroughly, but often there is a 'hidden' reason why answers that seem inconsistent actually mask a factor not accounted for in the survey options. No question you can get at least some significant data from them, but there have to be follow-ups to flush out what those potentially missed factors might be. Here's one: the survey asks about your willingness to take a trip in the same category (length and passenger number) as your last trip. But what if your last trip was very unrepresentative of your more typical trips? And this might well be the case with travel post-COVID.

The unreliability of this kind of survey without substantial follow-up could lead to disastrous decision-making from which Amtrak would be hard pressed to recover from. They have to get this one right; there will be no do-overs, I believe.

For now they basically need to settle for maybe upto four choices for the hard product. The soft products can be layered on it as time goes on and even changed. Since this is just about sleeping accommodation and not about Diners and Lounges, it may not be as difficult an exercise as some are imagining as far as stating the hard product requirements in the RFC goes, and then as usual the vendors will have significant leeway to bring their offerings to the table to choose from. My impression is that Amtrak will not do a detailed hard product spec. It will leave that to the vendors, to meet the general requirements stated by Amtrak.

flitcraft said:

One problem with this particular type of survey is that people often answer inconsistently from example to example. Sometimes that is a product of not reading all the options thoroughly, but often there is a 'hidden' reason why answers that seem inconsistent actually mask a factor not accounted for in the survey options. No question you can get at least some significant data from them, but there have to be follow-ups to flush out what those potentially missed factors might be. Here's one: the survey asks about your willingness to take a trip in the same category (length and passenger number) as your last trip. But what if your last trip was very unrepresentative of your more typical trips? And this might well be the case with travel post-COVID.

The unreliability of this kind of survey without substantial follow-up could lead to disastrous decision-making from which Amtrak would be hard pressed to recover from. They have to get this one right; there will be no do-overs, I believe.

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I've been one of those people who answer inconsistently (on other surveys). Often for me it happens when not all of the possible options are included on each question, or when the details for an option are tweaked slightly from question to question.

Mystic River Dragon said:

I think Amtrak should work on providing its current service well before it tries to add luxury rooms at ridiculous prices.

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I mean they have regular rooms at ridiculous prices right now, wouldn't complain about luxury rooms.

joelkfla said:

But they're preparing to request bids on new equipment now. It's now or never (in this case, never being 30 years or so.)

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This depends on a number of things. If they go with Siemens for the order, it seems quite reasonable that the production lines will be open for quite some time (10+ years), so ordering a follow-up compatible luxury sleeper order of 20-40 cars would potentially be doable.

TC_NYC said:

I mean they have regular rooms at ridiculous prices right now, wouldn't complain about luxury rooms.

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Good point!

I found it in spam folder, filled it out. Did not see where to apply for points reward, assuming it is based on the email address where I received it.

This blurb was included in the invitation email regarding the awarding of the bonus Guest Rewards points:

“Receive 1000 Amtrak Guest Rewards points as our thanks for completing the survey. Bonus points will be awarded within 4-6 weeks. You must be an Amtrak Guest Rewards member to receive the points and your email address must match the address associated with your member account. If you are not yet a member, learn more and join the program at Amtrak.com/guestrewards.”