Empire Builder service disruption

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Joined
Nov 6, 2016
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Brownsburg IN
I was booked on an Empire builder segment (CHI-MSP) round trip departing Monday afternoon and returning Friday morning.

I was just informed that both trains were canceled and had to get a refund.

Does anyone know what's going on? I'll be flying instead. Bummer.
 
I was booked on an Empire builder segment (CHI-MSP) round trip departing Monday afternoon and returning Friday morning.

I was just informed that both trains were canceled and had to get a refund.

Does anyone know what's going on? I'll be flying instead. Bummer.
8/28 (12) is extremely late.

Currently not estimated to arrive Chicago until at least 7a Monday morning.
 
When (IF) Amtrak gets enough equipment it needs to have a spare coach train set at Seattle to allow for short turns at Spokane that will keep eastbound Builder on schedule. The spare set could also be useful for short turning Starlight at PDX.

Now CHI also needs a spare set to cover any inbound that cannot make the normal turn.
 
It looks like the other days this week the train is planning to run as normal, and the cancelled Monday CHI-MSP-(SEA) train is what turns around to be your (SEA)-MSP-CHI trip leaving MSP on Friday. So a single cancelation happened to bite you both directions, unfortunately.
 
Lucky me! Generally, I've ridden a fair number of trains and have very few horror stories.

So I'm not going to feel too sorry for myself. But after several flights in a row – I was ready to ride the train.

While I do everything I can to make the airline experience as positive as possible - including flying first class if there is any way I can afford it - I'd rather take the train.
 
Cascading delays. 7(10) got very delayed (I think there was a grade crossing incident) and was run through to Seattle/Portand arriving at 5:49 pm rather than turning it in Spokane and bustituting it. So 8(12), with the same equipment, didn't leave Seattle until 12:55 am (according to Amtrak.com Train Status) and then just kept getting later. It almost 20 hours late now and isn't even to Minot yet and is already supposed to be Chicago.

They cancelled the 7(15)/8(17) round trip because they can't turn the trainset in time and it'll just keep cascading if they don't.

They should have terminated the train in Spokane and bustituted.
 
Amtrak had no problem cancelling an Empire Builder last week that arrived about 6 hours late into Seattle/Portland. But then on Friday, May 12, 2023, they released a near 9 hour late train from Seattle/Portland that caused crews to get out of place/turn, passengers likely seeking alternative plans than sitting around waiting for what was a 9 hour late train and grew into a 20 hour late train, and most of all - led to the cancellation of two Empire Builder trains - Train 7/27 of May 15 and its counterpart Train 8/27 of May 17. The May 12th Empire Builder should have never been released from its western terminuses of Seattle/Portland.

Better yet, Amtrak should be going BACK to its age-old practice of short-turning the westbound train set at Spokane when the westbound is 4 to 5 hours late. Late trains just get later and it will arrive late into Seattle/Portland and then cause a late eastbound to be released, only to run into a domino effect of non-rested crews and further delays by the time the trains cross cross at Minot, ND. The short-turning at Spokane, WA prevented outright cancellations. Bustitution to/from Spokane and Seattle/Portland, but it allows for a “reset” without cancelling or jeopardizing multiple trains - and was common practice pre-2017 for years on end (back at least to the 80s). Amtrak has an established Thruway bus service between Spokane and Seattle. So it’s not like they have to go totally shooting in the dark - there’s some established relationship (and has been).

Overall, the Empire Builder has the shortest ”same day turn” on the West Coast (of the Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, and CA Zephyr). But BNSF also does a pretty descent job of getting it over the road pretty timely - along with a pretty significant padded schedule in the intermediate sections of the timetable. Helps, but things can still fall apart…..I follow the Empire Builder’s performance pretty regularly. Or try to!
 
Better yet, Amtrak should be going BACK to its age-old practice of short-turning the westbound train set at Spokane when the westbound is 4 to 5 hours late. Late trains just get later and it will arrive late into Seattle/Portland and then cause a late eastbound to be released, only to run into a domino effect of non-rested crews and further delays by the time the trains cross cross at Minot, ND. The short-turning at Spokane, WA prevented outright cancellations. Bustitution to/from Spokane and Seattle/Portland, but it allows for a “reset” without cancelling or jeopardizing multiple trains - and was common practice pre-2017 for years on end (back at least to the 80s).
Better still have a loco, 2 regular coaches, & a coach snack train on standby at SEA. Then when 7 late just have the spare set turn the # 8s schedule and let passenger do across platform move. if nest 7 very late that equipment goes back to SEA as revenue.
 
I'll be interested to see the consist of this Tuesday's Empire Builder. After the previous cancellation of the EB (when it derailed in Chicago Union Station earlier this month) the consist the next day included one extra coach in the Seattle section and two extra sleeping cars, one up front and one extra Portland sleeper.
 
Amtrak had no problem cancelling an Empire Builder last week that arrived about 6 hours late into Seattle/Portland. But then on Friday, May 12, 2023, they released a near 9 hour late train from Seattle/Portland that caused crews to get out of place/turn, passengers likely seeking alternative plans than sitting around waiting for what was a 9 hour late train and grew into a 20 hour late train, and most of all - led to the cancellation of two Empire Builder trains - Train 7/27 of May 15 and its counterpart Train 8/27 of May 17. The May 12th Empire Builder should have never been released from its western terminuses of Seattle/Portland.
I recently had a train cancelled, not sure I agree or my fellow passengers would agree with just your just cancel the train statement.

Or we can add another train set to the rotation and skip the whole tight turnaround thing.
Better yet, Amtrak should be going BACK to its age-old practice of short-turning the westbound train set at Spokane when the westbound is 4 to 5 hours late. Late trains just get later and it will arrive late into Seattle/Portland and then cause a late eastbound to be released, only to run into a domino effect of non-rested crews and further delays by the time the trains cross cross at Minot, ND. The short-turning at Spokane, WA prevented outright cancellations. Bustitution to/from Spokane and Seattle/Portland, but it allows for a “reset” without cancelling or jeopardizing multiple trains - and was common practice pre-2017 for years on end (back at least to the 80s). Amtrak has an established Thruway bus service between Spokane and Seattle. So it’s not like they have to go totally shooting in the dark - there’s some established relationship (and has been).
 
It’s curious why they didn’t short turn that one - there was a similarly delayed train right after that they did short turn. 🤷‍♂️
Maybe couldn't get buses? It's not like the bus companies can whip up extra buses like everyone thinks Amtrak can whip up a few extra road worthy cars. ;)
 
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Maybe couldn't get buses? It's not like the bus companies can whip up a extra buses like everyone thinks Amtrak can whip up a few extra road worthy cars. ;)
Not just cars. There are people that think Amtrak can whip together an additional consist for the Empire Builder on short notice.
 
Maybe couldn't get buses? It's not like the bus companies can whip up extra buses like everyone thinks Amtrak can whip up a few extra road worthy cars. ;)

I would certainly agree with you except for one fact - Amtrak has a contract with a provider to operate an Amtrak Thruway Bus daily from Spokane to Seattle. And that’s been in place for years too. That’s huge and half the battle - to have an existing Thruway Bus in place over a route and at least having a contact. Not saying that they have the drivers and buses 24 or 48 hours out when needed to do a short-turn, but it’s also not like they have nothing to leverage from.

Getting a sixth train set together for the Empire Builder has always been impossible. It’d protect the route, but be a poor utilization of the equipment. The short-turn at Spokane was the ”backup” with bustitution in play between Portland/Seattle and Spokane. An “express” bus for passengers between Portland and Spokane or Seattle and Spokane can almost cut the train time in half.

There was a reason why Train Ops for years did a short-turn at Spokane when the westbound Empire Builder was running 5+ hours late. It can do an effective reset without totally cancelling the Empire Builders. It does mean passengers get to ride a bus between from western Washington to eastern Washington, but at least things are kept fluid!
 
I would certainly agree with you except for one fact - Amtrak has a contract with a provider to operate an Amtrak Thruway Bus daily from Spokane to Seattle. And that’s been in place for years too. That’s huge and half the battle - to have an existing Thruway Bus in place over a route and at least having a contact. Not saying that they have the drivers and buses 24 or 48 hours out when needed to do a short-turn, but it’s also not like they have nothing to leverage from.

Getting a sixth train set together for the Empire Builder has always been impossible. It’d protect the route, but be a poor utilization of the equipment. The short-turn at Spokane was the ”backup” with bustitution in play between Portland/Seattle and Spokane. An “express” bus for passengers between Portland and Spokane or Seattle and Spokane can almost cut the train time in half.

There was a reason why Train Ops for years did a short-turn at Spokane when the westbound Empire Builder was running 5+ hours late. It can do an effective reset without totally cancelling the Empire Builders. It does mean passengers get to ride a bus between from western Washington to eastern Washington, but at least things are kept fluid!
As you stated, having the contract doesn't mean that the buses and drivers were available. So why say "except for one fact"?
 
If only there was Regional Service between Seattle/Portland and Spokane that ran a few hours after the EB arrives in Spokane Westbound and arrives in Spokane a few hours before the EB departs Spokane eastbound, then there would be a standing connection to use in case a short turn is needed.
 
If only there was Regional Service between Seattle/Portland and Spokane that ran a few hours after the EB arrives in Spokane Westbound and arrives in Spokane a few hours before the EB departs Spokane eastbound, then there would be a standing connection to use in case a short turn is needed.
Maybe they can contract with the freight company to have box cars available.... :p
 
As you stated, having the contract doesn't mean that the buses and drivers were available. So why say "except for one fact"?
Improves the likelihood by a lot, especially if they know they can get repeat business. Still depends on availability, but had the Thruway Bus not been in place, Amtrak’s going from scratch. At least they got the first phone call in place. Treat your vendors and contractors well, and they can possibly open doors or help solve problems.
 
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