Need advice for short Empire Builder/Glacier National Park trip

Thank you!

danasgoodstuff said:

I'm quite fond of Cut Bank, but it's small and has only a few motels and restaurants. But you can see the Rocky Mountain front still from there. Havre is by far the largest town on the highline, but it's a long way east. You might be able to sly out of Great Falls, which is a real city with a good western art museum, but I'm not sure how public transportation from Cut Bank or Shelby is to there.
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the view looking west from Cut Bank

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Golden_Triangle_Transit_Schedules
https://www.toolecountymt.gov/pdf/Golden_Triangle_Transit_Schedules.pdf
Havre based service:
https://ncmtransit.rural-transit.com/
I once rode the Green route from Great Falls to Shelby. They didn't charge fares, just a locked donation box. I gave them $10.

Evidently, Glacier Park has dropped their scheduled, fare-based shuttle service using white vans. Now it is just free shuttles along GTTS Road and the Red Car tours, which are pricey. You can't seem to do a one way trip from East Glacier to West Glacier via Many Glacier and GTTS Road (or vice versa).

Northwestern said:

I have always wanted to stay at the Belton Chalet, in Apgar (West Glacier). A famous old hotel and a great restaurant next door.

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If you are going to stay in West Glacier, we loved the Belton Lodge. I'd call them and the Glacier Lodge to get real time info on your transportation options. Sometimes a phone call is a lot better than the internet or relying on those who have been there in the past. You can get good photos of the mountains in East Glacier so no need to go to the flatlands. I know you don't want to rent a car, but it really is easy to walk to the rental office in East Glacier from the station and use your vehicle only to travel on the east side up to Many Glacier hotel, trails, and restaurants along the way. It;s on the east side of the mountains so no scary roads to drive.

Below are some photos of the Belton Chalet and the Belton station, the Glacier Lodge and from its East Glacier station and the mountains from Two Medicine lakes.

I believe the Grouse Mountain Lodge and the Best Western in Whitefish both have airport shuttles and perhaps train shuttles as well. You can check out their websites and other places around Whitefish and possibly call them. The Best Western had an airport shuttle when we stayed there ten years ago. I do not know if there is taxi service or good Uber in Whitefish. If you can find a hotel with a shuttle in Whitefish, I think it would make sense to spend your first night and your last night in Whitefish. Maybe things have changed but I do not feel that it is easy to access the airport from West Glacier and vice versa.

The pandemic has really raised havoc with the concession operators in the Park especially in 2020 when the Blackfeet Reservation went into lockdown and as I recall, the Park could not be accessed from the East side roads which are located on the reservation. I can't recall when the lockdown was lifted. I understand from a friend who worked in the Park last year that there was a real shortage of help in the hotels, stores and restaurants. Hopefully that will ease as the pandemic hopefully wanes.

I imagine that things are kind of fluid at this time. It is possible that Xanterra may add additional Red bus tours this summer and in 2023 so you might want to keep checking back or call them. I believe they have done this in the past when there has been a demonstrated demand.

As I recall if you do go to Cut Bank, you can have your photo taken by the giant penguin in town which I believe signifies that Cut Bank is often the coldest spot in the lower 48 states. And if it is still in business which I think it is, you can check out Norm's Western Wear in the small shopping Center in Cut Bank. I find that their clothes are not inexpensive but you and your friends would have the option of arriving at Cut Bank as modern sophisticates and leaving as dyed in the wool cowgirls.

The Museum of the Plains Indians in Browning is a great place to visit but I don't know how you would get there without a car.

A friend occasionally reminds me that Cut Bank is the northernmost point in North America which is served by a daily passenger train which has sleeping car service.

Rasputin said:

A friend occasionally reminds me that Cut Bank is the northernmost point in North America which is served by a daily passenger train which has sleeping car service.

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Of course that should be Edmonton, and would be if VIA could get it together for daily service.

It's very likely that anywhere with an airport shuttle in Whitefish will be happy to do a train shuttle too (the train station is much closer, and easy to find.) There is also a new property, the Firebrand, in walking distance of the station.

Belton Chalet is similarly right-across-the-street from the West Glacier stop (as you see in Palmland's first pic.)

A friend occasionally reminds me that Cut Bank is the northernmost point in North America which is served by a daily passenger train which has sleeping car service.

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If "served by" means "stops at," yes. But you will be 3 miles farther north, as you go around a big sweeping curve about ten minutes before you enter the Flathead Tunnel (westbound)

My dad avoided the crowds by traveling this exact territory in the middle of winter - many years ago...

Now that I think of it, I think my friend says that Cut Bank is the northernmost station (not point) in North America served by a daily passenger train with sleeping car service. My thanks to Siegmund for pointing out this error.

Rasputin said:

I think you may be confusing the Red Bus tours operated by Xanterra with the free Park Service shuttles which operate pretty much only within the Park. The Park Service shuttles offer transportation only, are unreserved and sometimes there is a long wait. They basically take people to points along the road such as trailheads, campgrounds, hotels and Logan Pass, etc. but do not provide a narrated tour like the Red bus tours do. Red bus tours normally require a reservation.

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The nice thing about those free shuttles (besides being free) is that you can get off at any stop and take as much time as you like at each stop, then hop on the next one in either direction. So you can make your own program.

No one has yet mentioned this, but be sure to bring warm clothes and rain gear, even in the summer. There was a shuttle breakdown when I was at Logan Pass waiting for a shuttle and it got REALLY cold and windy and rainy and I started to become hypothermic waiting for the shuttle as I was not properly prepared for those conditions. Mountains.

Rasputin said:

Now that I think of it, I think my friend says that Cut Bank is the northernmost station (not point) in North America served by a daily passenger train with sleeping car service. My thanks to Siegmund for pointing out this error.

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My father, now age 99, rode all the transcons from Portland and Tacoma, and when Cut Bank is mentioned he says "Cut Bank? Oh, yeah, that's where the GN ran out of scenery." After the Milwaukee Road pulled the plug he always recommended the NP.

The scenery east of Cut Bank to St. Paul is relaxing, but it's mostly a reminder of Hill's dictum: "Maximum ton-miles, minimum train-miles."

Willbridge said:

My father, now age 99, rode all the transcons from Portland and Tacoma, and when Cut Bank is mentioned he says "Cut Bank? Oh, yeah, that's where the GN ran out of scenery." After the Milwaukee Road pulled the plug he always recommended the NP.

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I wonder what it would have been like to ride the Milwaukee transcon behind a "Little Joe" electric (of course they only went part way).

Thanks so very, very much, everyone!

I know having a car would simplify so much, but neither of us is willing to be the driver. My friend is usually the one willing to drive, but she's already said she will not drive on this trip, and neither will I. We both want to be able to look at the scenery, not the road.

Right now I'm thinking East Glacier won't work because of the non-existent or very iffy transportation to get to GTTS Road and any of the Red Bus tours or Park shuttles. Because of the easy access to the Red Bus tours and shuttles, I'm thinking that one of the hotels around Lake McDonald may be our best bet, especially Lake McDonald Lodge. In the Park, we plan to take one of the Red Bus tours. If it doesn't take all day, we could also use the Park shuttles. That part of the trip isn't the problem. We want to take the Empire Builder through the Park, and the problem is in figuring out where to get off and then the return leg of the trip back to the airport.

I'm willing to do a fifth hotel night, but she wants to keep it to four. I'll work on that! Cut Bank (thanks for the info; instant cowgirls!) is still intriguing to me, but that would be a night in Cut Bank and then a final night in Whitefish before going to the airport. (Whether we returned on the EB--preferable, or on a bus.) We could possibly eliminate the arriving night in Whitefish if we could go straight to West Glacier from Kalispell, but that would also eliminate the segment on the EB from Whitefish to West Glacier, and we'd like to have that train segment.

Question:
Is the train segment from Whitefish to West Glacier scenic and worth doing? (This is a short trip overall so every added scenic part is important to us.)

Concerns are the westbound train arriving late in Cut Bank, and having to wait on the platform or under a bridge as someone mentioned, LOL. Also, arriving late to Whitefish and being stranded at the station at night and not finding transportation to our hotel (although we might be able to get assurance of a hotel's shuttle). While we'd prefer to return on the EB, we may have to work a bus return to get to Whitefish and/or the airport. (Thanks for the schedule which shows one, only on one day of the week.)

We are putting so many constraints on ourselves that this little trip is difficult to plan, especially if my friend is unwilling to do a fifth hotel night. I'm not giving up, though, as I think it would be worth it.

Please keep the info and suggestions coming, if anyone has some more. They are all much appreciated!

The access issues out of East Glacier could be because of Route 89 passing through Blackfoot Indian's turf and Covid lockdowns. That is normally a busy corridor to Many Glacier. The road also goes along mountian shelves with no guardrail.

Cut Bank is about 6pm, and it doesn't get dark in the summer until 930. There is also Shelby, which is less deserted, but in a far uglier terrain. It is simply a place to lay-up, eat, and shower.

West Glacier ("Belton") is where there is no place to wait under cover. That should be only used eastbound.

In Whitefish, you can walk to a downtown motel, and they'll put the room key under the mat for your late arrival.

Between Whitefish and West Glacier is very green and scenic, just not snow sheds and continental divide.

Yes, it's a scenic drive from Whitefish to West Glacier. If you take the Empire Builder, can you make reservations for that short a trip? With no reservations, and with the popularity of the EB to Glacier Park I wonder if there will there be enough room on the train.

If you overnight at the Grouse Mountain Lodge, I'm quite sure they will shuttle you to their lodge from the train station, even if the EB arrival in Whitefish is late. You may want to call the Best Western Lodge, in Whitefish, to see if they will shuttle you to and from the train station (it looks like the Best Western is also not within walking distance of the train station). By the way, I found a taxi service in Whitefish and East Glacier:

Flathead Glacier service, Whitefish, 406-892-3390
Suntours & Taxi, East Glacier, 406-892-3390

I don't know anything about the above cab companies. You may wish to call them to make sure they will take your where you want to go.

If you stay overnight in in Cutbank, it might be better to not take the Builder to Whitefish, but the bus instead, considering how late the train gets into Cutbank ( and that's assuming it would be on time). Keep in mind, however, the train or bus goes along Highway 2, not through the park, so it would be a good 3 hour trip.

I hope you will find a way to either visit or stay overnight in Whitefish. It's my favorite little town. The Stumptown Museum, a Great Northern RR museum, is worthwhile and it's in or next door to the Amtrak station. It has very specific hours when its open.

The Toole County transit bus, Golden Triangle Transit, between Shelby and Whitefish only runs Tuesdays, and does not list any stops between Browning and Whitefish. They clearly don't want tourists on board. It seems mainly intended for scheduled medical and treatment appointments in Kalispell.

The story behind them is that at one time the Shelby mayor was head of a Montana mayor's council, and is very pro-public transit. He was not happy when Rimrock killed the route up to Sweetgrass, which dove-tailed with Canada Greyhound at Coutts for Calgary (which I did back in 2004). GTT bus does run Monday - Thursday to Sweetgrass, twice each day.

crescent2 said:

Question:
Is the train segment from Whitefish to West Glacier scenic and worth doing? (This is a short trip overall so every added scenic part is important to us.)

Concerns are the westbound train arriving late in Cut Bank, and having to wait on the platform or under a bridge as someone mentioned, LOL. Also, arriving late to Whitefish and being stranded at the station at night and not finding transportation to our hotel (although we might be able to get assurance of a hotel's shuttle). While we'd prefer to return on the EB, we may have to work a bus return to get to Whitefish and/or the airport. (Thanks for the schedule which shows one, only on one day of the week.)

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The train ride between Whitefish and West Glacier is scenic, however, I find it to be nowhere as scenic as the section between West Glacier and East Glacier. The latter should be your priority.

If you are doing a Red Bus tour I would strongly recommend the Crown of the Continent tour to Many Glacier and back. A long day but well worth it.

West Glacier is a village right on the railroad and U.S. 2. Not particularly scenic but it does have some lodging such as Belton Chalet, the Glacier Highland, and the West Glacier Motel. Convenient for catching the train esp. the first two places.

Apgar is a small village with a few lodging places and one (?) restaurant and some gift shops, and the Park Visitor Center. It is about 2 miles inside the Park from West Glacier. It is at the foot of Lake McDonald and has a great view looking up the lake.

Lake McDonald Lodge is a large hotel near the head of the Lake about 10 miles from Apgar and West Glacier. Very nice!

As you may have seen on its website, Xanterra operates a shuttle between Lake McDonald Lodge and Apgar to the West Glacier train station.
My understanding is that the Amtrak stations at Whitefish, East Glacier (open in the summer) and Shelby are staffed by agents and have waiting rooms and checked baggage. The station at Cut Bank has a waiting room and I believe there may be a caretaker in charge of the station but no checked baggage. The bridge is a bit of a distance from the station so you would not want to wait under the bridge. At West Glacier (Belton Station) there is no agent, caretaker, waiting room or checked baggage. The historic Belton station there is owned by the Glacier Park Conservancy and they have a great bookstore there. I have seen in the past that they have allowed people to wait for the train in the bookstore but the last time I was there, I noticed that the bookstore was often closed at train time.

As Amtrak25 has noted, the Golden Triangle bus service was started some years back after the major bus companies ceased to operate in the area. I believe it basically provides service to seniors and low income customers to provide transportation to medical appointments which is why many of the stops are at health clinics or senior centers. The service may be fine but it is pretty sparse schedule. I would be hesitant to center my visit around it.

The Empire Builder has reasonably good timekeeping. I would not be afraid of taking the train westbound from East Glacier, etc. to Whitefish in the summer because the hours of daylight are so long. It is a spectacular view either way but I prefer westbound. There is always the risk of a late train and a run along the park in darkness but you will have to assess that risk.

Whitefish is a booming little town with bars and restaurants downtown that are open late. Whitefish is a safe place. They do not roll up the sidewalks there at 6 p.m.

If I were planning your trip, I would definitely want to avoid getting stranded in Cut Bank, East Glacier or West Glacier while trying to get back to the airport.

Does anyone know an easy way to get from E. Glacier Park to Waterton Lakes National Park? Of course, you could rent a car in E. Glacier and drive, but a bus or shuttle, of some kind, would be convenient for those who wouldn't wish to rent a car. Possibly there could be a problem for a bus or shuttle to cross the border into Alberta? There is a bus service from Calgary to Waterton, but it would mean an extra hour on the road, compared to East Glacier to Waterton.

It's been 40 years since I last visited Waterton Lakes National Park. I really liked the little town of Waterton. For those who have been there, any suggestions for lodging in Waterton? Waterton Lake Lodge might be a good choice. I would like to spend a night at the Prince of Wales Hotel, but that would be expensive and I have read a few negative reviews of that hotel. It sure is, however, a historic hotel with a great view of Waterton Lake.

Glacier Park used to run a white van service throughtout the park, and one of their routes was from East Glacier Lodge to Wateron via Many Glacier. There is no sign of that system this year. Do note that this Lodge is outside of Park boundaries.

I stayed at Waterton's Prince of Wales hotel in 1980. It was something of a dump then. While I am sure it has been refurbished since, when I was back in 2005 and stayed at a B&B in town (with an abesentee host who provided no breakfast and no receipt), the surrounding grounds around the hotel had deteriorated, looked very brown as opposed to green of 1980. It could be the climate getting more arrid, but it didn't seem well kempt. I have no desire to go back there, even if there were transporatation. One of the lakes crossed the international boundary. It was not an issue in 1980. It was in 2005.

Many Glacier and the cheaper Swiftcurrent motel nearby are my ultimate, tranquil, scenic, green, go-to places with a lake, actually 2 of them. You take one boat, take a short walk, then get on another boat.

US Customs made me open my suitcase for a search on the way back. He had to do the opening without allowing me out of the van. When he had trouble with my suicase lock, he let me out to open it. He must have been afraid I packed heat. Then he asked what my Chicago CTA rfid pass was for that was hanging out of an interior pocket. None of this nonsense ever happened to me on the Adirondack.

No need to head to Canada.

There used to be summer only boat service between the two parks, keep an eye out to see if it gets restored. The company is based in Waterton.

Northwestern said:

Does anyone know an easy way to get from E. Glacier Park to Waterton Lakes National Park?

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Not that I know of at the present. However the Glacier Park Lodge at East Glacier and the Prince of Wales Hotel at Waterton are both owned and operated by Pursuit so they may be re-starting a shuttle between those hotels at some point. You may want to give them a call.

Alice said:

There used to be summer only boat service between the two parks, keep an eye out to see if it gets restored. The company is based in Waterton.

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Yes, there was a boat excursion around the lake when I was there. The boat crossed the border between Canada and the US about half-way. I do hope for it to be restored.

Again, many thanks, everyone.

In looking at the once-a-week shuttle, I had noticed the end points were medical facilities and figured it was a service meant mainly for patients. I had therefore mostly ruled it out for us, even if the timing and stops would have worked. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I think that's no longer an option for us.

Yes, we would definitely make reservations on the Empire Builder for coach.

As for waiting under a bridge in Cut Bank, no, we're not thinking that's for us! It was my understanding there was only a platform at Cut Bank, but Amtrak's website says there is a waiting room in the station. Still working on getting back to Kalispell if we did go to Cut Bank.

I also appreciate the discussion of Waterton. I'd love to cross the border into Canada but there are about a dozen things I'd have to figure out first. I hope the trip works out for those interested in doing it. It seems a shame for us to be so close and not go, but ...

I'm now wondering if we might just need to reconcile ourselves to going no further east than East Glacier Village, and turning around there. Would a same-day return on Amtrak be safe to plan? If on time the eastbound train arrives in East Glacier Park at 9:44 a.m., and the westbound train arrives in East Glacier at 6:45 p.m. That's about 9 hours leeway for a late eastbound EB. But... Amtrak. In my experiences, Amtrak has run late more times than not, but not 8 hours late. ???

Or should we plan to spend one night in East Glacier, just to be safe regarding making the westbound train to return to Whitefish and then Kalispell? I know the hotels all book up far in advance, so what on earth could we do in EG if the eastbound train was so late that we missed our same-day westbound train for the return?

If you're wondering why even go from WG to EG and right back again, my initial reason for the trip was to travel on the Empire Builder through GNP, at least one way. (And take a Red Bus tour in the Park.) I'm willing to give up going any further east than E. Glacier, but I don't want to give up the train trip from one side of the Park to the other.

Amtrak's website says there is a waiting room in the East Glacier station where we could presumably safely wait if our westbound train was running late. Platform only at W. Glacier, though.

(Our previous two nights need to be spent in West Glacier/Lake McDonald because we have to have dependable access to the Red Bus tours for the one full day we'd be there. We can find no transportation to them from E. Glacier now, other than renting a car.)

I'm beginning to wonder if this trip is really practical since we are not willing to get a car. Not giving up yet, though.

The info I've received so far has been extremely valuable! Many, many thanks, all.

The chances of taking the eastbound Empire Builder to East Glacier and missing the return trip on that day's westbound Empire Builder would be extremely remote in my experience. Not impossible because anything can happen but not likely at all.

If your eastbound Empire Builder is hours late arriving in Whitefish, just don't board and do something else that day.

Many people visit Glacier without renting a car. It may pose some limitations but there are still many wonderful things you can do so don't give up. And by 2023 there may be more Red Bus tours or shuttle services available from Xanterra or shuttle services available from Pursuit.

Thanks, R.

Yes, if the eastbound was extremely late, we just wouldn't be able to take it, I suppose. That would eliminate one of the two main reasons for the trip, though!

Still pondering all these things and hoping to make it all work.

A million thanks, all!