Brightline Trains Florida discussion

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I think no matter what you do it will be a live experiment for a while as the new stable state of the environment is determined with the introduction of a thing that perturbs normal flow of things including stupidity.
 
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It seems that there will continue to be incidents no matter what enforcement. It all comes down to distracted driving and walking. I confess to getting distracted driving a few times including in the past at a RR crossing thankfully with no consequence. I hope that Brightline has enough spare parts for their locos and has a very competent repair force to quickly repair the locos.

That brings up the problem of legal holds after accidents. I have no idea what the tort laws are in Florida but there has been Amtrak equipment tied up for more than a year after an accident. The Cal Z accident is over what 2 + years?
 
A little off the current topic, but the number of serious incidents involving a car and a Brightline train is beginning to become ridiculous. Aside from elimination of grade crossings, what can be done here? Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?

It seems this will continue.
I followed the complete Brightline route on google maps and the number of grade crossings is considerable - maybe even too many for a train that wants to go 79mph consistently.

At this point, service will suffer as the number of crashes go up.
 
A little off the current topic, but the number of serious incidents involving a car and a Brightline train is beginning to become ridiculous. Aside from elimination of grade crossings, what can be done here? Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?

It seems this will continue.
I followed the complete Brightline route on google maps and the number of grade crossings is considerable - maybe even too many for a train that wants to go 79mph consistently.

At this point, service will suffer as the number of crashes go up.

They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.
 
They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.
I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.

They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.
 
I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.

They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.
There will certainly be quad gates, and even around Melbourne, I've seen pedestrian gates. But I don't think that the pedestrian gates are capable of getting a determined soul from taking their life, or even a not-so-determined drunk person stumbling from the numerous bars that are on either side of the tracks. Not to mention, unless they aren't done yet, no adequate fencing along the ROW that I've seen.
 
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They want up to 110 or 120 MPH between WPB and Cocoa. I'm actually a bit frightened for this.
Not 120 mph. 110 mph. You cannot legally go 120 mph in the US unless you have a sealed corridor with any grade crossing present protected by more or less impenetrable physical barriers across the road when gates are down. These would be similar to those used at airports to protect entry into the secured zone.

Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?
 
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Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?

My YouTube queue has been suggesting "idiots in cars" videos a lot lately - it's surprising, yet somehow not, that people are terrible drivers and try to beat trains and lights, etc. It's surprising that there aren't more crashes from some of the insanity I've seen.
 
They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.
Yes. They are all being equipped with intrusion detectors interlinked with the I-ETMS+ system. But they are of limited help if the intrusion happens too close to the train's arrival at the crossing. But at least those that are trying to beat a 4 quad gate and get stuck on the track will probably trigger things early enough since the gates come down quite a bit before the train arrives.
 
Of course no one can keep someone that is intentionally or unintentionally intent on dying from eventually succeeding in that quest. In the Orlando area people distressingly frequently die on highways getting hit by motor vehicles while they were presumably out for a stroll in the middle of I-95. What do you do with them?

Without being aware of the details, in my opinion one problem is that housing is being built in areas that were previously green fields and often without much thought being given to pedestrians. If you can chose between chancing it across a major highway or walking a three-mile detour in the middle of the night to use the nearest legal crossing, I think a lot of people will take their chances, especially at times of day that there isn't much traffic, which typically also coincide with times they may have had a glass too much to drink (which may be the reason they aren't driving in the first place) and as a result of that misestimate the speed of approaching cars.

So quite possibly, if you provide safe and legal crossing places (as in, over or under passes) and combine that with fencing then people will use them. But some areas have far too few of those and its always difficult to put them in retroactively .

So people being dumb may be one part of the story, but lack of legal and safe crossings may be another.
 
Cirdan, I think both you and Jis have accurately described a part of the "body elephant" that is the problem. I spend a lot of my time in my home state of Montana and at-grade crossings are everywhere and with the new long, long freight trains there is a huge temptation to "beat the train" to the crossing, despite how stupid that is. But underpasses or overpasses are expensive so little is done. The railroads have always been there but the temptation is greater now that the wait is longer.
But Jis is right, too. There are a lot of stupid people, (or people that might not have been as stupid before they drank a dozen beers), who just aren't all that capable of coherent thought with regards to how fast a train is approaching.
Then there is the final part of the equation, suicide by train, which is harder to eliminate but not impossible to reduce.
I think BrightLine is doing their best to mitigate the dearth of overpasses, since underpasses in Florida frequently encounter problems due to the water table frequently being just a few feet below the surface. But suicide prevention fencing is going to take time and I think we are going to have quite a few people killing themselves by train in Florida, intentionally or not, in the years to come. I understand BrightLine's position but the optics are really bad and they need to both spend more money and be seen as being actively trying to engage the community even more to address the issue.

Without being aware of the details, in my opinion one problem is that housing is being built in areas that were previously green fields and often without much thought being given to pedestrians. If you can chose between chancing it across a major highway or walking a three-mile detour in the middle of the night to use the nearest legal crossing, I think a lot of people will take their chances, especially at times of day that there isn't much traffic, which typically also coincide with times they may have had a glass too much to drink (which may be the reason they aren't driving in the first place) and as a result of that misestimate the speed of approaching cars.

So quite possibly, if you provide safe and legal crossing places (as in, over or under passes) and combine that with fencing then people will use them. But some areas have far too few of those and its always difficult to put them in retroactively .

So people being dumb may be one part of the story, but lack of legal and safe crossings may be another.
 
I believe they're installing 4-quadrant gates on that section, which should mostly eliminate those incidents caused by driving around the gate. That leaves drivers entering upon the tracks when traffic prevents them from clearing, oblivious pedestrians, and suicides.

They may be installing vehicle presence detection as well, but I'm not as sure about that.
Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.
 
That is the reason that quad gates are not recommended in the absence of uncrossable dividers that stretch out quitea distance from the crossing in both directions. But of course, someone who is hell bent on getting killed will eventually succeed.
 
Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.
It is possible and recommended to link the closing of the exit gate to the vehicle detection system.

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PUBLISHED/Graphics/5326.PDF
https://railtec.illinois.edu/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf-archive/09B1-GLXS2014-1003-HORNE.pdf
https://www.fra.dot.gov/conference/...ic Gate Operations with Vehicle Detection.pdf
 
News from today's Sunshine Corridor workshop meeting. From the presentation given: Universal and I-Drive committed $125M using PABs for construction, Universal to donate 13 acres of land for a station; from both parties: $13M in guaranteed annual ticket revenue, and $2M towards annual maintenance costs.

Another very complicated deal to be made in Orlando! Just like the 4-way deal back in 2013 to get the train to the airport via SR528.

Personally I think they should committ $250M for construction to balance the tax money versus their private profit from having the new rail link, but the guaranteed ticket revenue is just as good as well. Especially if it is linked to inflation over the years.

Download is from Orlando Business Journals, no paywall, however adblockers are detected though.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...-pledges-land-investment-in-sunrail-brig.html

Edit: here is a link to an updated Orlando Sentinel report with some more details, but is behind a paywall.

Universal, SunRail, Brightline eye $1B rail expansion from Orlando airport to I-Drive
 

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Higher fines, security cameras at all crossings, zero tolerance policy (lost license on first offense)?
I would support all of that but I think the bigger issue is that we set the bar too low for acquiring licenses when we’re young and keeping them when we're old. Florida seems to be a perfect storm of spring breakers and retirees.

Has there been discussions about quad gates actually trapping cars on the tracks because the timing of the quads end up trapping cars on the rails ( and the driver doesn’t want to break the gate to get out)? Are they a greater safety or creating more danger? Why do I ask, many YouTube rail crossing fails with quads seem to follow this trend. The driver gets themselves trapped, they don’t want to run the gate to get out (really?) and end up getting smashed by the train.
If we go by social media videos it seems we're not doing nearly enough to train drivers on the seemingly obvious dangers and solutions around them. So many dash cam videos have left me shaking my head in confused disbelief. That being said I’ve run into my own problems when a silent (no horn) four-gate crossing malfunctioned and I realized the builders never implemented a solution for leaving the waiting zone without breaking through the gates and fouling the tracks.
 
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Yet another vehicle versus Brightline crash tonight

Brightline train collides with tractor-trailer in Lantana

The location is at another grade crossing that is next to an intersection with a road (in this case Dixie Highway) that parallels the tracks that has no traffic signals.

And this grade crossing is in a quiet zone that does not have quad gates. How is that allowed? I thought quiet zone crossings have to have quad gates? A quick Google maps check seems to show only the major road crossings in the area have quad gates.

This location has only a stop sign at the intersection for the road that crosses the tracks. The distance between the tracks and the parallel road intersection is short - not enough for the vehicle trailer the truck was hauling to clear the tracks when stopped at the intersection. How could there be any expectation that the truck driver could stop short of the crossing and be able to safely enter the intersection?

My question is, how did this intersection get approval for the quiet zone with the lack of quad gates and signalization at the adjacent intersection? The incident on Monday was at a similar crossing with stop signs at the parallel intersections and lacking quad gates.

I am now suspecting that safety has taken a back seat in South Florida as far as grade crossing designs there go on the FECR. Seems like a lot of safety devices were not installed in order to save money.
 
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Here is a picture of the Brightline Charger that hit the vehicle carrier earlier this evening. 3 incidents in 4 days has got to impact their ability to run normal service now.
 

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