Brightline Trains Florida discussion

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Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?

If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.
 
Talking about there being g only space in the interstate median for a single track in locations, didn't the original Florifda High Speed project also envisage using this median? Would that have been single track too?
 
Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?

If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.
Nope, a grant is not a loan and is not repaid.
 
So, I'm confused. I haven't followed Brightline's funding the whole time. It's privately operated, but not completely privately funded since they're getting grants?
To summarize the situation, Brightline was ready to pay for the link from Orlando Airport and Disney, essentially on a nonstop routing that did not go by any logical places to stop. Lots of people in both the public and private sectors wanted them to use a routing that would stop at the Convention center (close to Universal Studios). This routing will cost significantly more. Agreement has been reached to have a public agency construct this segment with Sunrail (commuter operator) to provide local service and Brightline to operate on trackage rights. Federal government has just announced a grant to pay part of the cost of of designing the alignment and stations. This will allow a more accurate cost estimate.
 
How hard would it be to construct a rail link extending Sunrail from Sanford along an I-4 routing to a new connection to FEC at Daytona creating an Orlando-Daytona-St. Augustine-Jacksonville route?
 
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Talking about there being g only space in the interstate median for a single track in locations, didn't the original Florifda High Speed project also envisage using this median? Would that have been single track too?
Back in 2009 the plans for HSR did have 2 tracks for the full length along I-4. However, since then there have been several iterations of the long term Tampa Bay area interstate plans. Also, back in 2009 the HSR project would have had a much bigger source of funding to build their planned infrastructure. So if the I-4 ROW needed to be widened and take private property to do that (which was the case with their design), it would have happened. Brightline, however, has tried to avoid having to buy private land and has a much smaller budget.
 
Federal government has just announced a grant to pay part of the cost of of designing the alignment and stations. This will allow a more accurate cost estimate.
Here is more on the specifics of the grant:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0220601-jxladqanirdcpij3eobgu53iiu-story.html
However, this specific CRISI Grant is not exclusively for use of the Sunshine Corridor within Orange County. It is for the entire Brightline Phase 3 OIA - Tampa Project. It is a grant that requires matching funding from Brightline. As it is a grant there is nothing to pay back, and hence there is no financial risk to Brightline beyond providing the matching funds, which is actually a pretty small portion of its original planned budget for Phase 3.

Quoting from the Railway Age article on the CRISI Grants....
13. Brightline (Fla.) – Tampa to Orlando High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Project: Up to $15,875,000 will be used to advance preliminary engineering activities to support Phase 3 of the Brightline system: a 67-mile extension from the Orlando International Airport to Tampa, Fla., mostly within the right-of-way of I-4 in central Florida. Brightline currently operates from Miami to West Palm Beach, Fla. (Phase 1); its West Palm Beach to Orlando segment (Phase 2) is expected to be complete by the end of 2022 and carry passengers in 2023. The project qualifies for the statutorily required set-aside for projects eligible under 49 U.S.C. § 22907(c)(2) that support the development of new intercity passenger rail service routes including alignments for existing routes. Brightline, a privately owned intercity passenger service provider, will provide a 50% match.

At the end of the day the Sunshine Corridor proposal within Orange County depends critically on being able to snag very significant grants, maybe to the tune of even close to half a billion dollars from the feds. Without that this is unlikely to be implemented unless the funding shortfall is back filled by the local large corporate beneficiaries.

The Deming proposed one cent sales tax can only go so far, but it also forms a critical funding component, since the feds will probably not consider an application a serious one unless CFRC somehow resolves the ongoing operating subsidy mess that exists right now. Afterall the risk of Sunrail failing to operate is significantly higher at this time than that of Brightline failing to operate.
 
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I might add, the SR417 route as far as I know is not completely off the table. Brightline had recently started an EIS update to that route. Maybe Brightline is holding that option available as a stick to the I Drive and Universal supporters as well as SunRail (government sponsors) to get things done quickly. I doubt that Brightline would end phase 3 expansion plans because Orlando area groups could not get their stuff together for the I Drive people. The SR417 route is a billion dollars cheaper. So IMO, Brightline will get to Tampa either way.

Edit: I forgot that Brightline appears to have promised to provide the local matching funds for any federal grant awarded by committing the estimated $3B they will spend on the phase 3 project. (See my previous post from a few days ago regarding an FDOT presentation) So now it is in the hands of local governments to act.
 
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This is from the FDOT presentation, and might help explain where things are headed as far as funding goes:

Project Costs and Funding

Up to $3 billion would be sought in Federal Railroad
Administration (FRA) Intercity Rail Funding provided in the
Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act

Brightline’s capital investments in the segment from Disney
Springs to Tampa (approximately $3 billion) would be non-
federal match for FRA funding—so no state funding would be
required for the Brightline intercity service

This project could reduce local and state funding from 50% -
100% for SunRail expansion capital costs

Brightline would pay a lease fee for intercity passenger rail
rights for access to the Sunshine Corridor segment from
Orlando International Airport to Disney to support corridor
operations and maintenance and SunRail operations

A separate New Starts Application may be required for SunRail
capital elements (i.e., trains, stations, track and maintenance
facilities) - State provides half the non-federal share
 
At present I give it at best a 50-50 chance at best of landing all that federal funding.

There is no mention of where the money is going to come for Surail's ongoing operating subsidy.

Someone may be smoking something potent.

Don't you find it odd that a piece of infrastructure will be built substantially using federal grants requiring matching money from Brightline with a few hundred million, if that thrown in by a few others, and the Brightline will have the pleasure of leasing that for operating their trains? But hey, this *is* Florida afterall... :)
 
At present I give it at best a 50-50 chance at best of landing all that federal funding.

There is no mention of where the money is going to come for Surail's ongoing operating subsidy.

Someone may be smoking something potent.

Don't you find it odd that a piece of infrastructure will be built substantially using federal grants requiring matching money from Brightline with a few hundred million, if that thrown in by a few others, and the Brightline will have the pleasure of leasing that for operating their trains? But hey, this *is* Florida afterall... :)
Well....
Been here in Florida for 25 years. So yeah..

I fully expect that Brightline will come out of this not spending anymore for the I Drive route than for the SR-417 route. That's how it is here (and most places tbh).

I suspect Brightline will pay their fair share to lease the line. However, I am like you by questioning the source of the operating subsidy for SunRail. I will believe it once I see a commitment by all parties to the SunRail train.

Like you say, it is Florida...
 
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Wonder what Brightline is going to have to pay for trackage rights from airport to the wye of 'Sun rail. CSX coal trains on the Orlando Utilities commision tracks will have almost all wear and tear of the track. Depending on who has the last word OUC or CSX will go a loong way to determine trackage rights costs.
 
For the FDOT presentation, that'll be something if all goes well. I'm not someone that hopes for things, but I hope some sanity is left in this state, even when I know there isn't. I've been living in Orlando since 1995 and I've heard all the promises and plans proposed over the last 27 years (as a kid I read A LOT of newspapers and watched the news, thanks dad lol).

Lynx doubling its bus fleet (come November they might get their chance, another topic and does involve Sunrail too with that penny sales tax). The light rail project (thanks Universal and the voters) and the Florida high speed rail. There maybe some that I missed, but those three are the ones that stick out the most for me.

If all goes smooth, I'll have to buy a bottle of wine. It'll be the few times Florida has done something that didn't warrant me to put a hole in the wall of my house with my fist....
 
Well....
Been here in Florida for 25 years. So yeah..

I fully expect that Brightline will come out of this not spending anymore for the I Drive route than for the SR-417 route. That's how it is here (and most places tbh).

I suspect Brightline will pay their fair share to lease the line. However, I am like you by questioning the source of the operating subsidy for SunRail. I will believe it once I see a commitment by all parties to the SunRail train.

Like you say, it is Florida...
I will add that perhaps Brightline has recognized that whatever fees it pays to use the new route will be more than made up for with increased revenue from the Universal/I-Drive station? I would imagine that most potential Brightline riders who are also visiting Orlando for the theme parks won't be staying inside Disney World.

For people like me, a stop very near I-Drive would be good as I-Drive does have really good public transportation along the road, whereas the previously proposed single station stop at Disney Springs would have been inconvenient for a lot of people.
 
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Wonder what Brightline is going to have to pay for trackage rights from airport to the wye of 'Sun rail. CSX coal trains on the Orlando Utilities commision tracks will have almost all wear and tear of the track. Depending on who has the last word OUC or CSX will go a loong way to determine trackage rights costs.
That trackage will be owned by CFRC or Brightline. CSX will just run their occasional coal train on one of the tracks. There will be multiple track in that ROW. Even the original Sunrail to Airport project had that track segment being bought out by FDOT and dispatched from DeBary Control Center. So CSX will not be a player. Besides they want to get rid of track ownership around Orlando and Miami as much as they can anyway.

How many sidings from the end of 2 main tracks at the Orlando utilities track underpass and Cocoa? Single main track to Tampa no problem at present IMO.
No sidings. Only combination of 1MT and 2MT with high speed equilateral turnouts connecting 1MT sections to 2MT sections.
 
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That trackage will be owned by CFRC or Brightline. CSX will just run their occasional coal train on one of the tracks. There will be multiple track in that ROW. Even the original Sunrail to Airport project had that track segment being bought out by FDOT and dispatched from DeBary Control Center. So CSX will not be a player. Besides they want to get rid of track ownership around Orlando and Miami as much as they can anyway.
Since the Sunshine Corridor route will be all double track, I will assume that new double track exclusively for SunRail and Brightline trains will be built to the north of the OUC railroad track (my understanding is that CSX has trackage rights and maintains the tracks under contract with OUC, but doesn't own the tracks or land). Brightline already has a lease signed with OUC that allows them to build on and use OUC ROW and tracks. A single crossover to the existing OUC track near the wye will allow for operations from the existing SunRail route. Although a second connecting crossover (possibly a double crossover) along the CFRC (former CSX A-Line) track to the north of the wye will improve operations overall.

The interesting design problem to solve is how to get to the Taft-Vineland Road east-west ROW. I think they will have to build a bridge over the CFRC mainline tracks plus the two yard tracks for industry along the west side of the CFRC ROW near the wye.

Edit: Brightline has a lease agreement with OUC I should say. I haven't heard if it has been signed yet. Also, SunRail AFAIK does not have an agreement yet with OUC to use their ROW or tracks.
 
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Isn't a grant essentially a loan that has to be repaid over time, albeit under more friendly conditions than a bank might offer you?

If they default on payments the company might go into bankruptcy and the Federal Government (or one of their agencies) might emerge holding the assets.
A grant doesn’t get repaid. It has conditions that must be fulfilled, but if the conditions are satisfied, the money never has to be repaid.
 
FYI - Track is laid, and rail train led by GATX 2433(?) makes it all the way to the East toll plaza along 528. Rail is sitting on an empty roadbed for another 6 or so miles towards the East leaving around less than 10 miles with nothing on it yet. Double tracking on two major grade crossings should be complete this month (Eau Gallie & Sarno). Lot to do still, but the work is moving along!
 
The proposed 1% sales tax should be able to handle this pretty well.

Sounds as if the pieces are falling into place nicely.
That is a definite maybe for now. The proposed tax is for general transport and not dedicated to Sunrail. So who knows how much Sunrail will get from it and how much will remain available after the shortfalls in the current system is addressed. But it is a good start.
 
When all the present proposed Sun Rail service is under construction then the rail route to the NW needs implementation. That is going to be much more difficult with all the freight service on the line.
 
The proposed 1% sales tax should be able to handle this pretty well.

Sounds as if the pieces are falling into place nicely.
That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.

Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.
 
That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.

Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.
As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....
 
And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....
I'm not that pessimistic. As population increases and more and more areas are being built on, huge swatches of Florida are being urbanized by stealth. And in an urban environment the argument for rail and other forms of mass transit becomes more and more unavoidable by the day. This is why we are seeing Brightline among others, but also the various commuter rail schemes that have appeared over the last decades plus those that are still to come or be extended.
 
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