DE & MD studying Delmarva train options

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AmtrakBlue said:
CHamilton said:
Green Maned Lion said:
As far as I can tell, nobody lives on the DelMarVa south of Dover.
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Don't tell my cousins that... :)
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Or the people migrating to southern DE to be near the beaches. ;)
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A train would possibly have ample patronage during the summer tourist season. Rest of the year, not so much.

Many people get the idea that Sussex County DE must be in massive growth mode because so many really nice homes are being built there, and the retail and restaurant scene is exploding. That's true, but the vast majority of residential building permits are for second homes near the beaches for the well-to-do. They drive their Expeditions and Yukons to their homes. Wouldn't be caught dead on a train or a bus. But plenty of less wealthy who rent motel rooms or stay at Airbnbs might be inclined to do so -- seasonally.

I live part time just north of Rehoboth Beach. I would selfishly LOVE a daily train so I could connect to the Amtrak national network. But it's not viable. The beach towns before and after the summer season are not that popular. Even many of the true locals go on cruises or winter in Florida!
 
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
 
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
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There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?

There is an eastbound summer-only bus for weekenders on Fridays, returning westbound to the DC Dupont Circle area on Sundays. By most reports, it's a lot of fun and often filled. But one filled bus doesn't equal an even modestly profitable train.

I should think the only way to get real train service to DelMarVa, especially lower DelMarVa, would be to stop thinking of lower DelMarVa as a destination. Rather, study the possibility of routing trains that would otherwise be on the NEC for destinations like Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah, etc. via DelMarVa. Would this routing be more time-efficient? Would it result in a net loss or net gain of passengers?
 
My question is who's building the rail Chunnel of the Chesepeake Bay in order to do that. Plus cutting Baltimore, Richmond, and especially Washington from the LDs would do a lot of damage to them.
 
Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?

There is an eastbound summer-only bus for weekenders on Fridays, returning westbound to the DC Dupont Circle area on Sundays. By most reports, it's a lot of fun and often filled. But one filled bus doesn't equal an even modestly profitable train.

I should think the only way to get real train service to DelMarVa, especially lower DelMarVa, would be to stop thinking of lower DelMarVa as a destination. Rather, study the possibility of routing trains that would otherwise be on the NEC for destinations like Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah, etc. via DelMarVa. Would this routing be more time-efficient? Would it result in a net loss or net gain of passengers?
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I hit on this earlier in the thread, I think:

-For anything south of Hampton Roads, it probably is not time-efficient (at least, unless you were to also restart service south out of Norfolk on, I believe, the ex-Seaboard line).

-Between Hampton Roads and Philly/NYC, however, it might be. The mileage count PHL-WAS-RVR-NFK/NPN versus PHL-Cape Charles-NFK is off rather notably (I get 346 miles, including the ferry, from a 1940s timetable and 354 miles if I go by Google maps from Cape Charles today; going by Amtrak's mileage listings, I get 434 miles NYP-WAS-RVR-NPN-NFK (including 24 miles by bus at the end) and 443 miles NYP-WAS-RVR-PTB-NFK (with an admitted kludge at PTB: I don't know where N&W's old Appomattox Station was vis-a-vis Ettrick and I'd need to dig to find a proper mileage count for a through service of some kind since I think there was at most one Amtrak timetable that listed this when the Norfolk service started). Knocking out 80-90 miles is nothing to sneeze at, and if you were able to run the service mostly overnight (arriving at PHL/NYP before business hours) it might work as an option.

The bus needed from Cape Charles to Norfolk is still problematic, but if you could (somehow) average 50 MPH up the Eastern Shore you'd be looking at Norfolk-New York in about 7:00 versus 8:30 or so now.
 
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Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?
Click to expand...
There is a summer bus from north DE to the beaches: http://dartfirststate.com/information/programs/beachbus/
 
AmtrakBlue said:
Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?
Click to expand...
There is a summer bus from north DE to the beaches: http://dartfirststate.com/information/programs/beachbus/
Click to expand...
I would happily take that bus to connect with the Amtrak system at Joe Biden Station in Wilmington. But alas, it's only high season and even then it's only weekends. I guess that's all DART figures the summer tourist market from the north will bear. As I implied earlier, many if not most of the Lewes/Rehoboth/Dewey-bound tourons are velcroed to their high-end SUVs and other vehicles. Every year, it's getting tougher to park those right in town even on heavily metered streets. I'm glad I live 20 minutes (more at peak) north of most of the action, and have as my luxury item a driveway for my low-end vehicle. LOL

I think the bus from the north that runs all year terminates someplace in Dover. Depending on the someplace, it can be a sketchy place to be parking long term.
 
Skyline said:
AmtrakBlue said:
Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?
Click to expand...
There is a summer bus from north DE to the beaches: http://dartfirststate.com/information/programs/beachbus/
Click to expand...
I would happily take that bus to connect with the Amtrak system at Joe Biden Station in Wilmington. But alas, it's only high season and even then it's only weekends. I guess that's all DART figures the summer tourist market from the north will bear. As I implied earlier, many if not most of the Lewes/Rehoboth/Dewey-bound tourons are velcroed to their high-end SUVs and other vehicles. Every year, it's getting tougher to park those right in town even on heavily metered streets. I'm glad I live 20 minutes (more at peak) north of most of the action, and have as my luxury item a driveway for my low-end vehicle. LOL

I think the bus from the north that runs all year terminates someplace in Dover. Depending on the someplace, it can be a sketchy place to be parking long term.
Click to expand...
The Wilmington-Dover bus (301) stops/starts on DelDOT's main campus in Dover, it also serves the Dover Transit Center and Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Newark-Dover bus (302) stops/starts at the Transit Center and serves the Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Dover-Georgetown bus (303) stops/starts at the Transit Center.
 
CraigDK said:
Skyline said:
AmtrakBlue said:
Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?
Click to expand...
There is a summer bus from north DE to the beaches: http://dartfirststate.com/information/programs/beachbus/
Click to expand...
I would happily take that bus to connect with the Amtrak system at Joe Biden Station in Wilmington. But alas, it's only high season and even then it's only weekends. I guess that's all DART figures the summer tourist market from the north will bear. As I implied earlier, many if not most of the Lewes/Rehoboth/Dewey-bound tourons are velcroed to their high-end SUVs and other vehicles. Every year, it's getting tougher to park those right in town even on heavily metered streets. I'm glad I live 20 minutes (more at peak) north of most of the action, and have as my luxury item a driveway for my low-end vehicle. LOL

I think the bus from the north that runs all year terminates someplace in Dover. Depending on the someplace, it can be a sketchy place to be parking long term.
Click to expand...
The Wilmington-Dover bus (301) stops/starts on DelDOT's main campus in Dover, it also serves the Dover Transit Center and Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Newark-Dover bus (302) stops/starts at the Transit Center and serves the Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Dover-Georgetown bus (303) stops/starts at the Transit Center.
Click to expand...
I can google-map those locations, but which (if any) would you think are safe places to leave a vehicle for at least two weeks? Do any offer such parking?
 
Skyline said:
CraigDK said:
Skyline said:
AmtrakBlue said:
Skyline said:
fairviewroad said:
Maybe a solution is something seasonal and highly targeted like the Cape Flyer service in MA or the Denver-based ski train.

I don't have a good concept of how close the train route goes to the actual shore communities. The trick would be making sure passengers had a way of circulating locally once they got to the beach, either through hotel shuttles, jitney service, Uber, etc. But you'd think there'd be enough demand for a Friday/Sat/Sun service during the summer, at the very least.
Click to expand...
There might be. There is bus service that only goes as far south as Dover--pretty far from the popular summer beaches. If the beaches were a viable summer market, you'd think we'd already have summer bus service, right?
Click to expand...
There is a summer bus from north DE to the beaches: http://dartfirststate.com/information/programs/beachbus/
Click to expand...
I would happily take that bus to connect with the Amtrak system at Joe Biden Station in Wilmington. But alas, it's only high season and even then it's only weekends. I guess that's all DART figures the summer tourist market from the north will bear. As I implied earlier, many if not most of the Lewes/Rehoboth/Dewey-bound tourons are velcroed to their high-end SUVs and other vehicles. Every year, it's getting tougher to park those right in town even on heavily metered streets. I'm glad I live 20 minutes (more at peak) north of most of the action, and have as my luxury item a driveway for my low-end vehicle. LOL

I think the bus from the north that runs all year terminates someplace in Dover. Depending on the someplace, it can be a sketchy place to be parking long term.
Click to expand...
The Wilmington-Dover bus (301) stops/starts on DelDOT's main campus in Dover, it also serves the Dover Transit Center and Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Newark-Dover bus (302) stops/starts at the Transit Center and serves the Scarborough Rd park and ride. The Dover-Georgetown bus (303) stops/starts at the Transit Center.
Click to expand...
I can google-map those locations, but which (if any) would you think are safe places to leave a vehicle for at least two weeks? Do any offer such parking?
Click to expand...
While I don't know if there are restrictions on long term parking in either location (there may or may not be), and neither are secured fenced in lots, I would be willing to consider the DelDOT campus and the Scarborough Rd location. Assuming that there is nothing particularly attractive in or about your vehicle my biggest concern in those locations would be on getting towed (assuming that long term parking is not allowed) not stolen or broken into (though I suppose like anywhere it could still happen).
 
Seaboard92 said:
My question is who's building the rail Chunnel of the Chesepeake Bay in order to do that. Plus cutting Baltimore, Richmond, and especially Washington from the LDs would do a lot of damage to them.
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This question, from quite a few years ago, may be addressed in any supplemental Bay Crossing studies recently performed by the Md. Department of Transportation. The recenly completed (spring 2022) "Bay Crossing Study" did not address any transit options. Very good point though, if AMTRAK did not have to negotiate Northern Virginia-DC-Baltimore...etc.a rail tunnel could be possible IFF it included a parallel and seperate freight train (think containers relieveing east coast truckers...) line. Let's send that idea up the line!
Ken Noble BS, MUrbanPlanning
Worton, MD (Kent County, Maryland...AT the former "Hepbron Station")
 
khnobes said:
This question, from quite a few years ago, may be addressed in any supplemental Bay Crossing studies recently performed by the Md. Department of Transportation. The recenly completed (spring 2022) "Bay Crossing Study" did not address any transit options. Very good point though, if AMTRAK did not have to negotiate Northern Virginia-DC-Baltimore...etc.a rail tunnel could be possible IFF it included a parallel and seperate freight train (think containers relieveing east coast truckers...) line. Let's send that idea up the line!
Ken Noble BS, MUrbanPlanning
Worton, MD (Kent County, Maryland...AT the former "Hepbron Station")
Click to expand...
Something like this was considered (briefly, in passing) as an option when Amtrak was mucking about with one of those NEC Future studies.
 
west point said:
connect to a tunnel? Thr original norfolk southern regional RR would have been a good fit.
Or the NF&D
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I think the "tunnel question" is up in Maryland, not down in VA. The prospect of a line going out via Annapolis and then up to Wilmington isn't utterly insane if you want a second routing out of DC.

[The idea of a separate freight routing from Fredericksburg through Dahlgren/La Plata, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense in context...it would've been a solid project at various points since it would get hazmat freight out of downtown DC.]

[Refer to my comments about viability for a line going all the way down - I think you could make it work given the time savings if you felt that ridership between Hampton Roads and Points North of Wilmington was going to be sufficient, but selling folks on the bus bridge would still be a bit of a lift (while no crossing of the Chesapeake down there would remotely make financial sense).
 

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