Amtrak Cascades expansion to new corridors

I'm glad to hear more talk of an west to east expansion of the Amtrak Cascades in Washington.

https://is.gd/qMdSvi
"Expansion of Amtrak type service from Seattle to Spokane via Yakima and the Tri-Cities is projected to perform competitively with other intercity passenger rail corridors even with fairly low frequency of service".

I think the projection of $ 150 million, for High Speed Rail, is much too low. I would rather have the state of Washington first focus on Seattle to Spokane.

It needs to be the whole Seattle/Yakima/Pasco/Spokane/back the other way loop in both directions, and hit Spokane at a decent time of day instead of the middle of the night like the Empire Builder does. The Builder serves all of this except for the Seattle to Pasco by way of Yakima leg, just not at a time that makes any sense for folks in the eastern half of the state.

With the current Builder schedule, I would never take the train from PDX or Seattle to Spokane, But I might take the builder to point further east where the arrival isn't at dark o'clock.

danasgoodstuff said:

With the current Builder schedule, I would never take the train from PDX or Seattle to Spokane, But I might take the builder to point further east where the arrival isn't at dark o'clock.

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Of course. I think they're talking about a day train or corridor service in addition to the Empire Builder.

danasgoodstuff said:

It needs to be the whole Seattle/Yakima/Pasco/Spokane/back the other way loop in both directions, and hit Spokane at a decent time of day instead of the middle of the night like the Empire Builder does. The Builder serves all of this except for the Seattle to Pasco by way of Yakima leg, just not at a time that makes any sense for folks in the eastern half of the state.

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They are clearly talking about a state sponsored corridor service that would, of course, be largely day train(s) at decent times. The Builder's schedule was never designed with Washington intrastate travel in mind (and Washington state doesn't sponsor and fund it).

BTW, it has to go via Pasco and Yakima. The Stevens Pass line is saturated. The Cascade Tunnel has to be blown clear of exhaust after each train passes, a process that takes like 25 minutes, IIRC. There are only so many slots each day and they're taken.

As a resident of the Tri-Cities (Pasco/Kennewick/Richaland), this can't come fast enough and I've been writing letters in to my state legislators to encourage expansion of the Cascades service east of the Seattle/Portland corridor, however I'm not holding my breath. Very few people here even know we have the 1x a day Empire Builder (Portland Leg) and most people drive to Spokane, Seattle and Portland, all of which are ~3 hours away.

I do believe an improved East-West rail service in Washington State could be a great success, they just need to do a good job advertising it on the highways like I-82, I-90 and US-395.

Not only would a daytime train from Seattle to the Tri-Cities to Spokane be much appreciated and popular, I think it would also garner a high ridership. Especially during the summer months for people travelling to various recreational areas in Washington, Idaho, Montana and British Columbia. Also, the ability to not have to drive on icy and hazardous roads during the winter months.

MARC Rider said:

Of course. I think they're talking about a day train or corridor service in addition to the Empire Builder.

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zephyr17 said:

They are clearly talking about a state sponsored corridor service that would, of course, be largely day train(s) at decent times. The Builder's schedule was never designed with Washington intrastate travel in mind (and Washington state doesn't sponsor and fund it).

BTW, it has to go via Pasco and Yakima. The Stevens Pass line is saturated. The Cascade Tunnel has to be blown clear of exhaust after each train passes, a process that takes like 25 minutes, IIRC. There are only so many slots each day and they're taken.

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Yes, I get that, sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm saying that's why it's needed to have a train at a decent time for Spokane and to go to Yakima which is currently unserved. However, Spokane to Seattle by way of Yakima won't be quick since it's a little round about and parts will be quite twisty and it's currently a little used freight line so it no doubt needs some work.

danasgoodstuff said:

Yes, I get that, sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm saying that's why it's needed to have a train at a decent time for Spokane and to go to Yakima which is currently unserved. However, Spokane to Seattle by way of Yakima won't be quick since it's a little round about and parts will be quite twisty and it's currently a little used freight line so it no doubt needs some work.

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Well, Stampede Pass is actually in good general shape, it hosts grain empties returning east on a pretty much daily basis.

The only issue might be is I think it is largely dark except for a couple CTC islands for controlled sidings. But the line is not a particularly fast line between Auburn and Yakima due to geography so the 59 mph maximum passenger speed for Class 3 track should not really be a problem there. Between Yakima and Pasco would support faster running if it were Class 4. Sidings could be an issue on Stampede, I think there are only two between Auburn and Cle Elum. Of course any improvements required to host passenger service would have to be Washington's expense, but the line overall should not require much.

I hope this happens. I spent some time out there years ago when my parents in law (now deceased) lived in Richland, including a visit to the trolley line in Yakima. I have heard the mountain passes can be treacherous in winter so this might provide a good alternative for those traveling east-west.

AmtrakMaineiac said:

I have heard the mountain passes can be treacherous in winter

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Yeah, that is kind of an understatement. All the Cascades passes are subject to severe avalanche hazards and sometimes are closed for days at a time. Also, the Cascades passes often have freeze, thaw, freeze cycles that increase icing. Spinouts and jackknifed semis are not infrequent occurrences, especially by idiots who ignore traction tire and chain requirements when posted.

Plus lowland Puget Sound drivers do not get enough real winter weather to get skilled driving in winter conditions coupled with the fact that many think 4WD/AWD makes them bulletproof.

I really hate Snoqualmie and Stevens in the winter.

I am probably dreaming. I wonder if a daylight Cascade train, Seattle to Tr-Cities to Spokane would ever come about, if another daylight Cascade train could connect with that train out of
Portland, OR. Have it connect at Pasco.

Northwestern said:

Also, the ability to not have to drive on icy and hazardous roads during the winter months.

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This is going to be the biggest selling point. I can't count how many times they close I-90 through Snoqualmie pass and advise for people to put snow tires on. The only reliable method of transportation in the Winter is flying, which obviously comes with lots of obstacles.

Northwestern said:

I am probably dreaming. I wonder if a daylight Cascade train, Seattle to Tr-Cities to Spokane would ever come about, if another daylight Cascade train could connect with that train out of
Portland, OR. Have it connect at Pasco.

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And if you would really like to dream, it would run southeast from Portland to Pasco and Boise, Idaho.

This was on the GN's Stevens pass which was altered after the disaster in 1910, but my point is that all passes over the North Cascades are treacherous. The proposed train we are discussing would use Stampede Pass, built by the NP.

Skip Freeway Expansions, Rebuild Stampede Pass this has good maps and discusses current rail conditions and freight use of the passes, etc.

The Cascade tunnel route as so well noted is now at capacity. Can it be improved? That is both an engineering question and a will by BNSF to decide to do capacity expansion. First question can the ventilation schedule be changed to provide faster clearing of smoke? Probably more complicated. Probably over my understanding of operations. Wonder if a ventilation shaft could be placed mid point of the tunnel that could clear 1st half once a train has cleared using a mid point door. Then once train has cleared the mid point could clear second section.

However increasing train thru put will require more siding and / or 2nd main track. Much of route is in protected lands. Is present ROW wide enough to allow for more 2nd track? Restoratio of electrification? Probably has been studied to death by BNSF and earlier RRs. That would require basing enough engineers costing at least $5M / year for salaries and housing Depending on length of electrification.

Stampede? Raising clearances also studied to death. + revisions of track for approaching Auburn.

All in alll a monster of a problem(s) requiring a lot of time and money .

I hear a lot of people saying "the Cascade Tunnel is at capacity." That capacity being in the vicinity of one train per hour (WADOT says 28 trains per day.) I can't help observing it carries somewhat less than half that, at present: the Skykomish webcam logs show 12-14 trains most days, and when I was in Leavenworth for 4 days this past June, never saw 2 trains closer than 2 hours apart.

I don't doubt that BNSF would refuse to permanently allocate another pair of slots to passenger trains. But railfanning Stevens Pass and the Wenatchee River canyon felt downright lonely at times.

As for Stampede, I expect rather minimal improvement to be necessary -- rather few sidings are needed to support "all eastbounds, except 1 westbound passenger train." (Clearances should be ok: the Builder ran over Stampede with Superliners in 1980 and 1981.) It would just be a question of what speed people were willing to pay for - through service to Spokane is never going to be fast compared to driving or flying.

This is all a great idea, but I don't hold much hope that WSDOT is going to prioritize it. They are running horrible short Horizon cars on the existing Cascades corridor. The trains are jammed but they aren't adding more service and have announced no plans to do so in the future. It seems like they are doing the bare minimum.

I have seen the Cascades north of Everett on the way to Canada a few times and it seems smaller than a couple years ago. A locomotive on each end and 3 cars in the middle - on 5 total.

DaveW said:

I have seen the Cascades north of Everett on the way to Canada a few times and it seems smaller than a couple years ago. A locomotive on each end and 3 cars in the middle - on 5 total.

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Yes, the Talgo VI's that had usually been used on it pre-COVID have been retired. Except for Business Class, capacity is much the same. Each little Talgo car had much less capacity than the Horizons now being used as temporary stand ins until the Venture order is delivered. It is not dissimilar to the Superliner replacement sets that were used on 516/519 when a Talgo set was withdrawn for maintenance, which was 2 Superliner coaches and Sightseer or a Diner/lounge.

Right now, 2 Horizon coaches and a Horizon Cafe/Business Class car appears to be the standard Cascades consist for all Cascades services except the one train pair with the single ODOT Talgo VIII set that is operational. That is currently assigned to the 500/505 EUG-SEA-EUG trip.

Business Class seating is much more constrained. I think there are only 16 BC seats in those Horizons. In fact, you can tell which trains have the remaining Talgo assigned by looking at the BC pricing. It is usually in high bucket for the Horizon assigned trains.

Chris I said:

This is all a great idea, but I don't hold much hope that WSDOT is going to prioritize it. They are running horrible short Horizon cars on the existing Cascades corridor. The trains are jammed but they aren't adding more service and have announced no plans to do so in the future. It seems like they are doing the bare minimum.

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They are at the mercy of Amtrak constrained car availability until WSDOT receives its Venture order, which should be 2025. That order is sufficient for more service.

WSDOT has done something, they ordered Ventures. The current equipment situation is an Amtrak imposed constraint not a WSDOT one. And they had to drag Amtrak kicking and screaming to provide equipment to resume a single Vancouver train.

Someday the midwest Siemens cars will become fully operational. What happens to the Horizon cars then ? Can they then go to the Cascades??? Or end up going to NOL - mobile service???

west point said:

Someday the midwest Siemens cars will become fully operational. What happens to the Horizon cars then ? Can they then go to the Cascades??? Or end up going to NOL - mobile service???

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All of the above. None of the above. If they free up before their own Venture cars are delivered, I can see WSDOT fighting for some, so they can run longer consists and/or resume the 516/517 Portland-Vancouver service. Right now the car shortage is acute so I can see the various states' rail divisions liaising with Amtrak tussling over any freed up ones.

zephyr17 said:

They are at the mercy of Amtrak constrained car availability until WSDOT receives its Venture order, which should be 2025. That order is sufficient for more service.

WSDOT has done something, they ordered Ventures. The current equipment situation is an Amtrak imposed constraint not a WSDOT one. And they had to drag Amtrak kicking and screaming to provide equipment to resume a single Vancouver train.

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Well afterall it was WSDOT at the urging of FRA that canned the Talgo VIs. So it is not exactly Amtrak’s doing. Most likely none of this would have happened if WSDOT did not thoroughly screw up the Point Defiance Bypass project culminating in the derailment. Admittedly Amtrak tagged along inexplicably too.