Future Amtrak Sleeper and ADA ideas

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Very sharp. Definitely modern. Consider me old fashioned, I still prefer beds parallel to the window. There's nothing like laying in bed looking out the window of a moving train.
I'll second that. The typical European across-the-car bed setup leaves you with a smallish window at one end and a claustrophobic long narrow room which also allows only one person to really enjoy the view. I guess for a short overnight trip, like on the Night Owl, it would be okay but not for the rest of Amtrak's more scenic longer routes.

I also hate the permanent rear facing coach seats but look . . . the cafe car has actual human-loving table seating!

P.S. Note the clever fold down "step" for reaching the top bunk. Looks a little scary actually but no reason Amtrak couldn't make a similar more substantial foldout ladder.
 
Looks like it's intended to provide luggage space for a larger bag at floor level.
I do like the idea of having real seats for daytime as opposed to just the bench.

As for luggage storage, the Russians have had the right idea all along. The base of the lower berth is a huge box. The lid to the box is the lower berth which hinges up to give access to the huge storage space. And it is secure to boot, since the only way to get to anything in there is to get you off your berth and lift the berth! I remember using that space on my ride from Helsinki to Moscow and back on the EC Leo Tolstoy, which ran using Russian rolling stock and Russian staff, when it ran that is. Naturally it does not anymore.
 
Can't tell if they recline or not.
I am almost certain that they are base slide forward type recliners, which is the only type of recline that seems to be available in new rolling stock these days. Incidentally that is the only type of recline available on Amtrak Sleepers too in the day mode.
 
I thought about that but if you check out the coach seats they recline the old fashion way!
I don't see realistically how there could be a seat in that location in a Sleeper that could recline the old fashioned way though. Just like there isn't in Amtrak Sleepers either.
 
I suspect high speed trains could open up new markets for overnight service. Chicago-New York, for instance.
The absence or unavailability of appropriate rolling stock is very low on the list of things that is keeping trains from running between Chicago and New York in 12 hours or so which would be closer to the world standard these days, even without going HSR. Indian Railways is planning to do the equivalent distance, about 1400 km in around 12 hours with maximum speed of 160 kph.

BTW Oslo - Bergen is not HSR. It is a 160kph route with numerous speed restrictions. Been there and done that. It will not be HSR anytime soon. Of course considering that almost nothing in the LD network is even 160 kph in the US, I suppose it is high speed ;)
 
I don't see realistically how there could be a seat in that location in a Sleeper that could recline the old fashioned way though. Just like there isn't in Amtrak Sleepers either.
True. I still really prefer sitting opposite my wife at the window watching the world go by in an Amtrak sleeping car. Something special about it. I hope whatever they do they use the present Amtrak room configurations.
 
BTW Oslo - Bergen is not HSR. It is a 160kph route with numerous speed restrictions.
My Norwegian cousins and their neighbors built a road from their town of Vik i Sogn to the Voss station on the Oslo-Bergen railroad route back when I was a little girl. Before then, the only way they could board a train was to take a ferry all the way to Bergen. Even so, at the time I visited them (back in the mid-to-late 1970s), that road was only open from mid-May to the end of summer, and was snowed in the rest of the year.
Getting back to sleeping car ideas, the only time I ever rode in a Norwegian sleeping car was once on an overnight train from Oslo to Copenhagen. It was a 4-bunk compartment with the berths across the width of the car, but obviously not as nice as the proposed new design in the pictures. Less of a view at night, perhaps, but also less likelihood of rolling out of one's bunk during the night.
 
My Norwegian cousins and their neighbors built a road from their town of Vik i Sogn to the Voss station on the Oslo-Bergen railroad route back when I was a little girl. Before then, the only way they could board a train was to take a ferry all the way to Bergen. Even so, at the time I visited them (back in the mid-to-late 1970s), that road was only open from mid-May to the end of summer, and was snowed in the rest of the year.
The Oslo - Bergen Line across the Hardangervidda is spectacular in the summer and almost scarily so in the winter. It is one of the most enthralling rides I have ever taken. My preference will always be to do it by the daytime Express rather than overnight, but I am sure many business people will spring for the overnight ride.

There is another thread where I have posted a few Youtube videos taken by a prolific content creator Engineer of Norwegian Railway who works on both passenger and freight trains on that line.
Getting back to sleeping car ideas, the only time I ever rode in a Norwegian sleeping car was once on an overnight train from Oslo to Copenhagen. It was a 4-bunk compartment with the berths across the width of the car, but obviously not as nice as the proposed new design in the pictures. Less of a view at night, perhaps, but also less likelihood of rolling out of one's bunk during the night.
I have traveled on an overnight train in Norway from Bodo to Trondheim. It was a 4 berth compartment. Then from Trondheim we took a side trip to Andalsnese on the fjord during the day and then headed back to Oslo.

I think the illustrated arrangement will work fine on Amtrak except that they would probably need to be made en suite by putting in staggered facilities between pairs of those compartments. Also I think Amtrak would want to have a layout like the current Roomette layout with shared facilities at the end of cars. Using airline style lie flat pods is an intriguing idea that is at least worth a serious consideration too I think.
 
I think I've taken a night train on the Oslo-Bergen line, but my memory is old - it's definitely way too scenic to waste on night travel unless you've ridden it a lot. I've taken a lot of night trains in Sweden (the Norrland Mainline mainly).
 
So apparently Amtrak has an active survey out there right now asking AGR members their opinions on different types of future sleeper accommodations including airline style lie-flat seats.

(No link available)
I received it. Lie-flat seats, solo rooms and a range of luxury rooms. And cars with work spaces, gyms, etc. And high prices.

It all sounds nice until you realize that the nasty on-board employees will be handling it. Now they hang out in the cafe car and yell at passengers who try to sit down; next they’ll be hanging out in the gym and other new cars, yelling at passengers who try to enter.
 
I received it. Lie-flat seats, solo rooms and a range of luxury rooms. And cars with work spaces, gyms, etc. And high prices.

It all sounds nice until you realize that the nasty on-board employees will be handling it. Now they hang out in the cafe car and yell at passengers who try to sit down; next they’ll be hanging out in the gym and other new cars, yelling at passengers who try to enter.
Perhaps the survey is only being sent to selected/random AGR members. I wasn't emailed a link, and I wasn't able to Google it (or find a mention of it on YouTube).
 
Perhaps the survey is only being sent to selected/random AGR members. I wasn't emailed a link, and I wasn't able to Google it (or find a mention of it on YouTube).
Yes. It has been sent to a select group. The deadline for submissions is today AFAICT.
 
Yes. It has been sent to a select group. The deadline for submissions is today AFAICT.
Bummer. I’d love to give my two cents.
Lie flat should really be a business class offering, not a sleeper class offering.

It would be great to have that as an in between option, but it’s not really appropriate for 40+ hour journeys if you’re looking for a true “sleeper” and paying as such.
 
Bummer. I’d love to give my two cents.
Lie flat should really be a business class offering, not a sleeper class offering.
They may be considering it for LD Coach offering as an option of some sort, is my understanding reading Car Fowler's description of the questions. He received it, I did not.

I just got permission from Carl Fowler to post the article that he posted on the AU Facebook group earlier today. Here is what Carl wrote there, in its entirety, for all your perusals and thoughts and discussion:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Written by Carl Fowler, posted here with his permission:

I received a fascinating email Friday from Amtrak--seeking feedback on new long distance equipment and new potential marketing/operational approaches. More on that in a moment. I'm sharing the parts of the email that don't lead to a dead-end. This was adapted so only the intended participant could complete the questionaire. I have no problem with that--but I still think this deserves to be more widely explored. I got this on Friday with a Monday deadline. I hope I've shared enough to convince you to complete the survey if you got the link. Amtrak has done some fine work here and hopefully will soon to ready to share more complete design details. This process needs to be transparent all the way.

Note without immediate comment that the survey defines long haul as being runs over 250 miles. I have to think further about this, but at present the minimum length by statute is 750 miles.

So here are salient parts on the email. Only the direct link is omitted, as it will not work:
****************************************************
Dear Carl,
As Amtrak is contemplating important changes to its Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles), we are now turning to our customers to help us better understand your experiences with our Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles) so that we can determine what amenities and offerings to include in the future. Northstar Research/HarrisX, an opinion research group, is conducting a survey to that end.

We invite you to submit your feedback by April 3rd, 2023:

Because we value your insights and opinions, you have been selected to participate in this research study. Your comments in this survey are confidential and are extremely important to all of us at Amtrak.

<Inactive URL link to the survey>

Please note that this survey must be taken on a laptop/desktop/tablet because sketches/drawings of future amenities will be presented. It is NOT compatible with mobile devices. It should take approximately 20 minutes of your time to complete.

Receive 1000 Amtrak Guest Rewards points as our thanks for completing the survey. Bonus points will be awarded within 4-6 weeks. You must be an Amtrak Guest Rewards member to receive the points and your email address must match the address associated with your member account. If you are not yet a member, learn more and join the program at Amtrak.com/guestrewards.

Your feedback is crucial in helping us improve our service to you. We sincerely appreciate your time. We thank you for your continued ridership and look forward to welcoming you on board again soon.
Sincerely,

Amtrak Market Research & Analysis Department
30th & Market Streets, Mailbox #11
Philadelphia, PA 19104
***************************************************

Now my comments:

The survey mostly consisted of a series of questions about particular new car designs and how Amtrak might integrate and price services around those designs. There was some very interesting stuff here.

Possibilities for entry-level coach replacement options ranged from a current-era adaptation of the leg-rest reclining seat coach, as on Amfleet II and the Superliners, to an upgraded overnight coach offering lie-flat bed seats. I have been hoping to see this design adopted by Amtrak (even by immediately retrofitting existing coaches) as a replacement for the lost and deeply missed Slumbercoach bargain priced/high capacity sleeper.

The Queensland Ry in Australia has been offering these lie-flat bed seats on its overnight Brisbane-Cairns Tilt-train (which is a narrow gauge service!) for a few years and the new Night Trains for Norway appear to have a variant included for their new overnight coach design (these cars are just ordered there).

For private rooms the full gambit of contemporary European designs was floated. There were possible single bed rooms, as well as multiple designs for doubles, some including not only spaces with private toilets but also showers. There was even an option for a Deluxe Suite that was almost a hotel option. While no design drawings of these options were provided, there were renderings in graphic sketches for each type of accommodation.

The evaluation process essentially had multiple stages. There are many pages offered and each is dense with real ideas and information.

First reviewers were asked to rank the seat/room designs by desirability and "would you consider this" responses, sometimes on a ranked numbered scale. Then multiple service/price examples were offered to be ranked against price/service/comfort levels. Key here was that the same seat/room designs appeared each time--but at very different pricing points (fares) and included different food service choices. Reviewers were also asked to rank the options against at least two airline seat/price options and against a bus option that I think was inspired by modern Greyhound coaches.

There was a lot to take in in each of these areas and I commend the thoroughness of the process. But there was at least one set of options that never appeared.

Across all of the service comparisons the coach travel choices either included only access (for purchased on-board food) to a cafe/lounge car or via some sort of at seat service and in a few cases no food service in coach at all. This included the lie-flat bed choices. In one or two versions even the least expensive sleeper room had only access to a cafe car. Proper dining car table-service meals would be still an exclusive perk of private room accommodation.
There was no choice offered that might have approximated traditional rail service where everyone could chose--if they wished--to visit a proper diner.

The final "summary" questions at last included a hint a dining car service choices for everyone via an echo of the just opened approach to coach dining on the western long-hauls--paying by the meal at table. Basically these survey questions asked if you, as a coach passenger, would be willing to pay $40, or/ and in a second option, $60 to be able to buy a dinner in the diner.

Sadly, throughout the survey there was a clear bias being expressed regarding food options, for following the current (in my view disastrous) practice of closely limiting/even banning access to the diner by coach passengers and that was a real disappointment.

Also, although more moderately priced options for sleeper accommodations appeared in several scenarios, there were also choices where a long haul sleeper space could have exceeded $3000 (or more) per person. I suspect this was to test the market for something like VIA Rail Canada's "Prestige Class" on the CANADIAN. But the options in these choices were very hard for me to swallow coming from a publicly-supported carrier about to spend on an entirely new publicly-financed fleet.

I do not want to overly bash this survey. Amtrak has some fascinating ideas here--not only for car-design but also for how it provide on-board service and how that should be priced. There was even an illusion to offering some sort of dedicated sightseeing car (grand-daughter of the vista-dome car--I hope?!?). It is very commendable they've reached out at least to Guest Rewards members for advanced feedback on this and it is also very positive that they shared so many service and design ideas.

If you get an opportunity to take this survey do not pass it by if you care about maintaining an truly national Amtrak. Read each page very carefully and pay close attention to the matrix suggested of comfort and price.
Unfortunately the survey does not include a free-form follow-up page for comments and/or further suggestions, but it does ask if you might be willing to talk directly to the survey team. You get a chance if you wish to share an email and/or phone--but this is NOT mandatory.

I hope you say yes.

They need to hear from passengers that America wants a truly national Amtrak that provides sanely priced service options, both in coach and sleeper cars and including quality food service access to all riders.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Last edited:
They may be considering it for LD Coach offering as an option of some sort, is my understanding reading Car Fowler's description of the questions. He received it, I did not.

I just got permission from Carl Fowler to post the article that he posted on the AU Facebook group earlier today. Here is what Carl wrote there, in its entirety, for all your perusals and thoughts and discussion:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Written by Carl Fowler:

I received a fascinating email Friday from Amtrak--seeking feedback on new long distance equipment and new potential marketing/operational approaches. More on that in a moment. I'm sharing the parts of the email that don't lead to a dead-end. This was adapted so only the intended participant could complete the questionaire. I have no problem with that--but I still think this deserves to be more widely explored. I got this on Friday with a Monday deadline. I hope I've shared enough to convince you to complete the survey if you got the link. Amtrak has done some fine work here and hopefully will soon to ready to share more complete design details. This process needs to be transparent all the way.

Note without immediate comment that the survey defines long haul as being runs over 250 miles. I have to think further about this, but at present the minimum length by statute is 750 miles.

So here are salient parts on the email. Only the direct link is omitted, as it will not work:
****************************************************
Dear Carl,
As Amtrak is contemplating important changes to its Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles), we are now turning to our customers to help us better understand your experiences with our Long Distance service (trips of 250+ miles) so that we can determine what amenities and offerings to include in the future. Northstar Research/HarrisX, an opinion research group, is conducting a survey to that end.

We invite you to submit your feedback by April 3rd, 2023:

Because we value your insights and opinions, you have been selected to participate in this research study. Your comments in this survey are confidential and are extremely important to all of us at Amtrak.

<Inactive URL link to the survey>

Please note that this survey must be taken on a laptop/desktop/tablet because sketches/drawings of future amenities will be presented. It is NOT compatible with mobile devices. It should take approximately 20 minutes of your time to complete.

Receive 1000 Amtrak Guest Rewards points as our thanks for completing the survey. Bonus points will be awarded within 4-6 weeks. You must be an Amtrak Guest Rewards member to receive the points and your email address must match the address associated with your member account. If you are not yet a member, learn more and join the program at Amtrak.com/guestrewards.

Your feedback is crucial in helping us improve our service to you. We sincerely appreciate your time. We thank you for your continued ridership and look forward to welcoming you on board again soon.
Sincerely,

Amtrak Market Research & Analysis Department
30th & Market Streets, Mailbox #11
Philadelphia, PA 19104
***************************************************

Now my comments:

The survey mostly consisted of a series of questions about particular new car designs and how Amtrak might integrate and price services around those designs. There was some very interesting stuff here.

Possibilities for entry-level coach replacement options ranged from a current-era adaptation of the leg-rest reclining seat coach, as on Amfleet II and the Superliners, to an upgraded overnight coach offering lie-flat bed seats. I have been hoping to see this design adopted by Amtrak (even by immediately retrofitting existing coaches) as a replacement for the lost and deeply missed Slumbercoach bargain priced/high capacity sleeper.

The Queensland Ry in Australia has been offering these lie-flat bed seats on its overnight Brisbane-Cairns Tilt-train (which is a narrow gauge service!) for a few years and the new Night Trains for Norway appear to have a variant included for their new overnight coach design (these cars are just ordered there).

For private rooms the full gambit of contemporary European designs was floated. There were possible single bed rooms, as well as multiple designs for doubles, some including not only spaces with private toilets but also showers. There was even an option for a Deluxe Suite that was almost a hotel option. While no design drawings of these options were provided, there were renderings in graphic sketches for each type of accommodation.

The evaluation process essentially had multiple stages. There are many pages offered and each is dense with real ideas and information.

First reviewers were asked to rank the seat/room designs by desirability and "would you consider this" responses, sometimes on a ranked numbered scale. Then multiple service/price examples were offered to be ranked against price/service/comfort levels. Key here was that the same seat/room designs appeared each time--but at very different pricing points (fares) and included different food service choices. Reviewers were also asked to rank the options against at least two airline seat/price options and against a bus option that I think was inspired by modern Greyhound coaches.

There was a lot to take in in each of these areas and I commend the thoroughness of the process. But there was at least one set of options that never appeared.

Across all of the service comparisons the coach travel choices either included only access (for purchased on-board food) to a cafe/lounge car or via some sort of at seat service and in a few cases no food service in coach at all. This included the lie-flat bed choices. In one or two versions even the least expensive sleeper room had only access to a cafe car. Proper dining car table-service meals would be still an exclusive perk of private room accommodation.
There was no choice offered that might have approximated traditional rail service where everyone could chose--if they wished--to visit a proper diner.

The final "summary" questions at last included a hint a dining car service choices for everyone via an echo of the just opened approach to coach dining on the western long-hauls--paying by the meal at table. Basically these survey questions asked if you, as a coach passenger, would be willing to pay $40, or/ and in a second option, $60 to be able to buy a dinner in the diner.

Sadly, throughout the survey there was a clear bias being expressed regarding food options, for following the current (in my view disastrous) practice of closely limiting/even banning access to the diner by coach passengers and that was a real disappointment.

Also, although more moderately priced options for sleeper accommodations appeared in several scenarios, there were also choices where a long haul sleeper space could have exceeded $3000 (or more) per person. I suspect this was to test the market for something like VIA Rail Canada's "Prestige Class" on the CANADIAN. But the options in these choices were very hard for me to swallow coming from a publicly-supported carrier about to spend on an entirely new publicly-financed fleet.

I do not want to overly bash this survey. Amtrak has some fascinating ideas here--not only for car-design but also for how it provide on-board service and how that should be priced. There was even an illusion to offering some sort of dedicated sightseeing car (grand-daughter of the vista-dome car--I hope?!?). It is very commendable they've reached out at least to Guest Rewards members for advanced feedback on this and it is also very positive that they shared so many service and design ideas.

If you get an opportunity to take this survey do not pass it by if you care about maintaining an truly national Amtrak. Read each page very carefully and pay close attention to the matrix suggested of comfort and price.
Unfortunately the survey does not include a free-form follow-up page for comments and/or further suggestions, but it does ask if you might be willing to talk directly to the survey team. You get a chance if you wish to share an email and/or phone--but this is NOT mandatory.

I hope you say yes.

They need to hear from passengers that America wants a truly national Amtrak that provides sanely priced service options, both in coach and sleeper cars and including quality food service access to all riders.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Honestly, I don’t care so long as they order A LOT of sleepers. The current shortage is proving to be a huge issue. There is massive demand for sleeper trains in the US, and having more rolling stock would bring the price down.

From hotel style delux sleepers to lie flat coach; it doesn’t matter if Amtrak is only looking to replace what they currently have.

They need more cars, so that they can run longer trains and bring down the cost of the product, and serve more customers.
 
I took the survey and it seemed to indicate more types of rooms, but all at high prices.

No thanks. I love American Airlines and its nice employees and good customer service and will pick it over Amtrak anytime.

If Brightline ran night trains, I’d take it.
 
Great pics! The sleeping compartment day seating mode looks bizarre though. Two small seats beside a low flat surface?
If the low flat surface were in the middle, it would work better for meals, games, etc.
Perhaps the folding "ladder" (seen in the night-mode picture, beside the door) might be the problem? Maybe there's a hybrid configuration where you can have the upper bunk folded out - in which case you can't put a seat there.

I agree 1000% that the table in the middle would be better than that configuration.
 
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