St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

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Great River (train) - Wikipedia

Looks the train has a new name: Great River

I do not like it. Doesn't even spend a third of its route along the Mississippi. Should call it the '400', except for the fact that our modern Amtrak can't manage to get this train to run on a 400 minute schedule like Amtrak's predecessors were able to do. Twin Cities Hiawatha would be a good name.

There have been articles in local papers in the last week saying that the train is supposed to start up by the end of 2023.

This is going to take the place of Hiawatha 333 and 340. Unfortunately for train 340, which currently departs Milwaukee at 5:45 PM every day, pretty much always on time since it is the origin, it will now be much more unpredictable since the train will have had 6 hours to find a way to become late on its way from St. Paul. Amtrak trains are more likely than not to find a way to be late.
The name comes from the advocacy group that pushed hard for the service, the Great River Rail Commission. Personally I don’t mind the name and frankly calling it the “400” makes no sense. The CNW train was gone before the idea of Amtrak and the only historical name that would fit would be the Twin Cities Hiawatha.

I’ve heard from an acquaintance who attended a meeting that Amtrak expects the service to start mid to late summer, that’s where the confirmation of the Great River name comes from. I’ll try and track down confirmation but everything is still up in the air obviously. Although the train 340 issue might be worrisome remember that WisDOT plans to add the 8th Hiawatha in 2024. RT 9-10 will be delayed until a rework of the Muskego Yard bypass is designed.
 
The name comes from the advocacy group that pushed hard for the service, the Great River Rail Commission. Personally I don’t mind the name and frankly calling it the “400” makes no sense. The CNW train was gone before the idea of Amtrak and the only historical name that would fit would be the Twin Cities Hiawatha.

I’ve heard from an acquaintance who attended a meeting that Amtrak expects the service to start mid to late summer, that’s where the confirmation of the Great River name comes from. I’ll try and track down confirmation but everything is still up in the air obviously. Although the train 340 issue might be worrisome remember that WisDOT plans to add the 8th Hiawatha in 2024. RT 9-10 will be delayed until a rework of the Muskego Yard bypass is designed.

I don't know if your acquaintance attended the Amtrak board meeting in December, 2022, but the Wiki entry that @Kramerica linked to cites the transcript of that meeting. The portion that discusses the route name and start date is as follows-

Q35. Which Amtrak Connects US projects do you expect to move forward in FY 2023?

A35. Dennis Newman: We anticipate the start of Chicago-Twin Cities Great River service by summer 2023 and are hopeful for the start of New Orleans-Mobile, Alabama, Gulf Coast service later in the year.

I appreciate the explanation behind the naming of the new service.

Almost wish it was named Great Rivers, as the train departs the Twin Cities, which is separated by the Mississippi River (which itself is crossed rolling from Minnesota into Wisconsin), the Menomonee River flowing past the Milwaukee Intermodal Station as it merges with the Milwaukee River, finally arriving at Chicago Union Station, along the banks of the Chicago River.
 
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This is going to take the place of Hiawatha 333 and 340. Unfortunately for train 340, which currently departs Milwaukee at 5:45 PM every day, pretty much always on time since it is the origin, it will now be much more unpredictable since the train will have had 6 hours to find a way to become late on its way from St. Paul. Amtrak trains are more likely than not to find a way to be late.
So true. This chronic uncertainty about “when the train will show up” or “get there” will dog Amtrak until it is solved. Assuming it ever happens, it will be fascinating to see a confident Amtrak (or other operating company) launch a marketing campaign to try to change that reputation for tardiness.

I hope the train’s on-time performance is better than expected. Maybe Precision Scheduled Railroading can actually apply to passenger trains. Precise. And scheduled without the padding.
 
I hope the train’s on-time performance is better than expected. Maybe Precision Scheduled Railroading can actually apply to passenger trains.
What? Run mile long passenger trains? No thanks :D
Precise. And scheduled without the padding.
Schedule without padding is a fantasy of railfans who do not understand how real railroads operate. It does not happen anywhere in the world. Relatively small padding yes. But it is always there.

Actually some railroads use something called "Booked speed", which is a speed, lower than the maximum allowed speed, that is used for scheduling purposes. Others just add some padding usually near the division points.

In any case, the timetable should reflect times that are achievable in real life and not some fantasy based on some arbitrary numbers like maximum speed, which may be seldom achieved in real operation.
 
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TBCH "Twin Cities Hiawatha" would actually be a very reasonable name for the service. Frankly, bolting "[descriptor] Hiawatha" onto WI/MN-bound services would make sense as a "service brand" (e.g. "Green Bay Hiawatha", "Madison/Capitol Hiawatha") since the name is in use for the corridor service as-is (I might brand the existing service the "Milwaukee Hiawatha" in this context).
 
What? Run mile long passenger trains?
Of course not! 😄.

Precision — Be precise.
Scheduled — Run on schedule.

Just my sarcastic way of saying that the host railroads call their operating strategy something that they choose not to apply to Amtrak trains.

Relatively small padding yes.
That was my point.

Schedule padding is ubiquitous in transportation. United’s EWR-SFO schedule, for example, has several flights each day. Most have slightly different lengths due to their expectations at different times of the day. When they arrive “early”, it reflects a lack of typical unfavorable conditions (winds, traffic at either endpoint, etc). They didn’t use the padding.

Amtrak schedules have excessive padding on most routes. It is a reflection of the complete absence of control that Amtrak has over most of its routes. Must be terribly frustrating for the employees — to both create those slower-than-you’d-like-them-to-be schedules and to fail to meet the passengers’ expectations that those schedules set.
 
My point was padding, well actually the schedule has to be based on a reality that a service provider (host railroads) and consumer (Amtrak) can agree upon and sincerely work towards. That situation is currently not found in the US for myriads of reasons to quite an extent non-technical. Until that happens it is not possible to get reasonably predictable operating schedules. Rest is just whistling in the wind and posturing IMHO 🤷🏻
 
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I actually am optimistic about the timekeeping possibilities. The Empire Builder seems to very rarely incur significant delays between MSP and CHI. I also imagine there will be a considerable pad at Milwaukee just to make sure. There’s also seemingly considerably more regulatory pressure on new service since there’s no quibbling about the viability of existing schedules.
 
I actually am optimistic about the timekeeping possibilities. The Empire Builder seems to very rarely incur significant delays between MSP and CHI. I also imagine there will be a considerable pad at Milwaukee just to make sure. There’s also seemingly considerably more regulatory pressure on new service since there’s no quibbling about the viability of existing schedules.
And no mountain passes or bears on the tracks to impede traffic!
 
We're looking at taking the EB out to Chicago either later this year, or next year, so I'm glad to see a second daily option from the Twin Cities. We would really like to do a stopover at St. Paul, as we have never visited the upper Midwest, but the single daily train had me a bit nervous about the connection. I hate having to rely on a single run per day. It looks like this will also give us a later option to depart St. Paul.

I'm assuming the equipment will be the new Venture cars?
 
We're looking at taking the EB out to Chicago either later this year, or next year, so I'm glad to see a second daily option from the Twin Cities. We would really like to do a stopover at St. Paul, as we have never visited the upper Midwest, but the single daily train had me a bit nervous about the connection. I hate having to rely on a single run per day. It looks like this will also give us a later option to depart St. Paul.

I'm assuming the equipment will be the new Venture cars?
There's plenty to see and do in the Twin Cities
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St. Paul City Hall is only a few blocks from Union Station.
 
I don't think Minnesota bought into the Venture/Corridor Charger multi-state consortium, so I would assume a P42 and Horizons, of which a couple of dozen many are stashed in Chicago and Beech Grove. Judging by the comments on the Venture seats, just as well.
 
Starting Annual ridership is projected to be 124k. I’d like to call that estimate low and project 175k. 124k is along the lines of the Vermonter or Ethan Allen. I think this run is more comparable to the Pennsylvanian which consistently tops 200k, or else the Palmetto before it took accomodated intra-NEC traffic, which was usually just under 200k. I think the Lynchburg Regional effect will come into play. This is a more reliable duplication of a service that is capacity constrained and not perfectly reliable, suggesting significant undercounted pent up demand. PMT will also likely increase on the Empire Builder.
 
I don't think Minnesota bought into the Venture/Corridor Charger multi-state consortium, so I would assume a P42 and Horizons, of which a couple of dozen many are stashed in Chicago and Beech Grove. Judging by the comments on the Venture seats, just as well.
Minnesota will be purchasing Venture cars at least and will likely add them to the Midwest pool. The NXL which could get funding soon would also use Chargers and Ventures.
 
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At least one of the trainsets being used right now for the Hiawatha has Horizon or Amfleet coaches and an Amfleet cafe-business car, though the Hiawatha has neither business class nor food service. Since it's always been said the new service would be an extended Hiawatha (not a new MKE-CHI frequency), I'm presuming that's what's going to be used when Great River service begins.

I would be very surprised if the Great River isn't run with Ventures eventually, but I'd also be pleasantly surprised if it starts with Ventures. Of course, if Venture coaches start showing up routinely on the Hiawatha in the next couple months, I reserve the right to change my mind. 🙂
 
EDIT: Thanks to the MODS for moving my post to the already existing thread....

Amtrak is working with Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois to run another train running between Minneapolis and Chicago. It'll take the place of one of the existing Hiawatha routes.

I've heard some people speculate that it will start as early as this summer, but I'm next expecting anything till 2024.

https://www.wxow.com/news/second-am...cle_87c5e8c0-bc6c-11ed-a254-bbbb2c365f0b.html
https://apnews.com/article/wi-state...trak-st-paul-d449e984dfa8c245c64b67e70e322b9d
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...mtrak-line-could-start-this-year/69940025007/
I don't expect any additional information until service begins, but if anyone knows of the projected timetable, feel free to send me a PM.
 
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New mod, new way to keep the order.
Makes it hard to see new events with out going thur multiple pages.

Thanks for the post. It did draw my attention to this.
I was glad you moved it, as I enjoyed reading prior posts from 2021-22.
Delta made the decision to end all flights to and from La Crosse to Minneapolis as of June 4.

I've seen a couple local news posts telling people that this new train will start as early as summer, to make up for the discontinued flights. However, I think that's being too optimistic.

I would think the new timetable would still want to leave MSP/Chicago at a reasonable hour. It would make sense if the new train left MSP in early afternoon, a few hours after EB 8/28, so that it could arrive in Chicago before 9:00-10:00 PM. Since, #7/27 already leaves Chicago around 3:00 PM, having an earlier departure in the morning could be beneficial to those that want to arrive in Minneapolis by late afternoon/early evening.
 
Projected timetable, from Wikipedia:

"The Great River train will make 13 total stops from Chicago to St. Paul. Westbound, the journey will take 7 hours and 11 minutes, while it will take 7 hours 27 minutes eastbound. Each direction, the train will have a 5 minute long stop in Milwaukee.

The train will be not be a completely new service, but will rather extend an existing Hiawatha Service train from Milwaukee to St. Paul and back. The trains that will be extended are numbers 333 and 340, with train 333 departing Chicago at 11:05am and train 340 arriving in Chicago at 7:14pm."
 
The Wisconsin DOT sent out an update a couple weeks ago with the following schedule. It didn't give an exact date, but showed the start of service being in summer or fall 2023, consistent with the plan to start in FY 2023 mentioned upthread a bit.
View attachment 32007
Thank you so much for posting!! The new times look great, arriving/departing Chicago early enough to still make connections with the CONO, Lakeshore, Metra trains to and from the Chicago suburbs. RAILFANLNK used to joke about how he always had to wake up at 0'DarkThirty if he ever wanted to catch the Zephyr to or from Lincoln, Nebraska.

I am so spoiled, and, as much as I love the EB, would probably favor the Great River train primarily because of the scheduling, and, presumably, the increased on-time performance.
 
Given the likelihood of train 8 being late eastbound I hope the states & CP have a realistic view about the need for sidings being available. For the mornings that 8 runs two-plus hours late an 11 o'clock hour eastbound departure for the new train out of STP would put two passenger trains occupying the freight route in relative proximity.

Such is why I would prefer an afternoon departure from STP, my main layover point (ie. where I'm presently living). I'm still glad for a predictable eastbound departure at any hour.
 
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