2nd Hudson Tunnel on Life Support

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According to this article in The New York Post ( :eek: ;) ) Related Cos. and Amtrak have agreed to build a box tunnel, for two tracks, under Related's Hudson Yards site, thereby keeping the option open for a second tunnel into NYP from New Jersey. Sen Chuck Shumer was instrumental in getting the funds available as part of the mitigation funds in the relief package for Hurricne Sandy.

From the article:

Schumer said he helped convince US Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and other federal officials that a new tunnel should be considered a “mitigation” project.He also got them to agree that Amtrak would receive some box tunnel funds out of the first $2 billion in the aid package, and would be guaranteed the rest of the money down the line.

The prompt availability of the cash was necessary to “meet Amtrak’s timeline” to get the job done before more work on Hudson Yards made it impossible.

“At Amtrak’s March meeting, they will commit to funding the box tunnel and agree to do it with Related,” Schumer said.

As Sen. Schumer said, :hi: Kudos :hi: should be given to Stephen M. Ross:

Schumer praised Related yesterday as “a good citizen” for agreeing to cooperate with the national railroad on the project.“It won’t cost Related anything,” Schumer said. But he noted that the development giant headed by Stephen M. Ross could have said no.

“I give Steve and Related a lot of credit,” Schumer said. “They’re doing it in such a way that their foundations and the box tunnel will be in synch.”
 
Interesting. I wonder if this was what much of the $186 million that Amtrak requested in the Hurricane Sandy relief bill as mitigation funding towards the Gateway project was for. Which was deleted by the House in the final bill.

If US DOT accepts this particular Gateway sub-project as a valid use of the relief funds for mitigation projects, Amtrak may be able to get line up additional funding for other parts of the Gateway project. But the price tag for the two new Hudson River Tunnels is listed as a whopping $7.2 billion in the NEC Commission Critical Infrastructure Needs report that came out a few weeks ago. NJT, MTA are not going to allow Amtrak to tap that much of the total mitigation funds for the Gateway project. Still, getting the box tunnel in place under the Hudson Yards before the high rises go up there is a start.
 
Link to the New York Post article "Fed money keeps rail tunnel alive". I will leave it as an exercise to the discerning Amtrak Unlimited reader to find the errors in the article.

IMHO, the title of this thread is mis-leading because the box tunnel is not for a "2nd" Hudson Tunnel, but for 2 new tunnels in addition to the two existing tunnels and it is not on "Life Support", but instead getting the funds to build a box tunnel to protect the future option to build new Hudson River tunnels.
 
You're right. The thread title is misleading. Final design work of Gateway Tunnels is currently on going using certain High Speed and ARRA funds. Realignment of A interlocking to eventually accommodate the new tunnels is happening as part of the $450 million dollar grant for New Brunswick - Trenton HS Project. This is additional work that just got funded which pretty much fixes the Manhattan end of the tunnel. This is a very clever move because the most difficult NIMBY opposition to overcome is for digging shallow cut and cover tunnes which are essential near the end of the tunnels. This is one of those segments. At least one won't have to arm wrestle with these real estate giant in the future.
 
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Two random thoughts inspired by this thread.

1) Related Companies is the goofiest name since someone decided that an umbrella corporation should be named Umbrella Corporation and use an umbrella as its logo. :giggle: Of course, Umbrella is fictional (and originally from a video game, not exactly High Art), but Related Companies owns (own?) lots of real estate and deals (deal?) in billions of dollars. :eek:

2) "real estate ginats" is the most apropos typo ever seen. Of course, Related Companies is totally doing the right thing here. But there are obstructionist developers and other businessmen who act as self-appointed guardians of the public from the boondoggle of rail :angry2: The best name for these Trump cards is a ginat: a giant gnat. :hi:
 
2) "real estate ginats" is the most apropos typo ever seen. Of course, Related Companies is totally doing the right thing here. But there are obstructionist developers and other businessmen who act as self-appointed guardians of the public from the boondoggle of rail :angry2: The best name for these Trump cards is a ginat: a giant gnat. :hi:
You mean the one allegedly descended from an Orange Haired Urnagutang? :p
 
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This is definitely good news. I can see Amtrak is juggling its capital funding pretty carefully at this point. This is critically important so as avoid huge costs in the future.
 
You're right. The thread title is misleading. Final design work of Gateway Tunnels is currently on going using certain High Speed and ARRA funds. Realignment of A interlocking to eventually accommodate the new tunnels is happening as part of the $450 million dollar grant for New Brunswick - Trenton HS Project. This is additional work that just got funded which pretty much fixes the Manhattan end of the tunnel. This is a very clever move because the most difficult NIMBY opposition ot overcome is for digging shallow vcut and cover tunnes which are essentialnear the end of the tunnels. This is one of those segments. At least one wont have to arm wrestle with these real estate giant in the future.
Yes, if the box tunnel plans include air and emergency access shafts folded into the Hudson Yards development project, that could save considerable money. Manhattan is a rather expensive place obviously to acquire property for access shafts, power facility, staging areas for construction. Which was a cost driver in the ARC project. If the box tunnel can be built as part of the Hudson Yard initial construction phase, then the staging area and digging costs is shared with the bigger Hudson Yards construction. Which is a $15 billion dollar development project, yes, billion with a B, which puts the projected costs for the Gateway project in some perspective.
On the rr forums, I have seen many posts from skeptics who think Amtrak will never get the money for the Gateway project. What is interesting about the NY Post article is that Senator Schumer was heavily involved, or at least, claimed to be so he can take credit. Senator Schumer is the #3 ranking Democrats in the Senate. Senator Lautenberg will be retiring at the end of the session in 2014 and he was perhaps the major supporter in Congress for the ARC project. I can see him, to have a legacy project, make a major push to allocate significant federal funding for the Gateway project before the end of his term.

In December, Senator Mikulski of MD became the chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee with the passing of Senator Inouye. Amtrak now has 3 of the most powerful Dems in the Senate from NEC states who are active supporters of Amtrak and the NEC. The House of course will be a roadblock, but Mikulski won't be hesitant to play hardball with the House Republicans who want transportation projects for their districts if they want to see the projects funded in the Senate version of the appropriation bills. With Mikulski as the Senate Appropriation Chair, I figure the B&P Tunnel and Susguehanna bridge replacements will get funded when the projects completes the PE and EIS stage.
 
You're right. The thread title is misleading. Final design work of Gateway Tunnels is currently on going using certain High Speed and ARRA funds. Realignment of A interlocking to eventually accommodate the new tunnels is happening as part of the $450 million dollar grant for New Brunswick - Trenton HS Project. This is additional work that just got funded which pretty much fixes the Manhattan end of the tunnel. This is a very clever move because the most difficult NIMBY opposition to overcome is for digging shallow cut and cover tunnes which are essential near the end of the tunnels. This is one of those segments. At least one won't have to arm wrestle with these real estate giant in the future.

1. Does "Final Design of Gateway Tunnels" refer to the tunnel box and or the Hudson Tunnel--and other parts of the Gateway Project--segments?

2. More than $5 billion is available from the Hurricane Sandy Relief Fund for "Transportation mitigation." Why can't Amtrak get--let's say $1 billion--from this Fund for the Gateway Project? I understand that tons of money is being spent on things like restoring the R Train Tunnel between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and on the Path Train, etc.
 
You're right. The thread title is misleading. Final design work of Gateway Tunnels is currently on going using certain High Speed and ARRA funds. Realignment of A interlocking to eventually accommodate the new tunnels is happening as part of the $450 million dollar grant for New Brunswick - Trenton HS Project. This is additional work that just got funded which pretty much fixes the Manhattan end of the tunnel. This is a very clever move because the most difficult NIMBY opposition to overcome is for digging shallow cut and cover tunnes which are essential near the end of the tunnels. This is one of those segments. At least one won't have to arm wrestle with these real estate giant in the future.

1. Does "Final Design of Gateway Tunnels" refer to the tunnel box and or the Hudson Tunnel--and other parts of the Gateway Project--segments?

2. More than $5 billion is available from the Hurricane Sandy Relief Fund for "Transportation mitigation." Why can't Amtrak get--let's say $1 billion--from this Fund for the Gateway Project? I understand that tons of money is being spent on things like restoring the R Train Tunnel between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and on the Path Train, etc.
The NYC Subway needs almost all of that $5 billion in order to make the Brooklyn-Manhattan tunnels more flood-resistant. Losing all of those tunnels again would be catastrophic.

Of course, if current predictions of a 300-foot (100-meter) sea level rise by 2100 are correct, we should be moving everyone inland and forgetting about the coastline, but nobody's thinking that big-picture.
 
But do not forget, though, that an ADDITIONAL $5 billion has been put into the Hurricane Sandy Relief Bill to deal with basic improvements to damaged infrastructure.... I just hope that Amtrak is somehow able to figure out how to get more money from that bill for new trans-hudson tunnels.
 
But do not forget, though, that an ADDITIONAL $5 billion has been put into the Hurricane Sandy Relief Bill to deal with basic improvements to damaged infrastructure.... I just hope that Amtrak is somehow able to figure out how to get more money from that bill for new trans-hudson tunnels.
Do you have some sort of reference for this additional $5 billion you keep referring to?
 
What does the Gateway Project have to do with Hurricane Sandy? Lets not steal funds that are needed for storm restoration to fund a project that has nothing to do with storm restoration.
 
Is this the tunnel the Gov Christie of NJ cancelled? If so, charge everyone getting off in NJ and extra $15.00 ..... or better yet, No Stops In NJ !!!!!
 
What does the Gateway Project have to do with Hurricane Sandy? Lets not steal funds that are needed for storm restoration to fund a project that has nothing to do with storm restoration.

The Gateway Project will travel through flood zones. Half of that $10 billion is for "future storm mitigation." The tunnel box is being funded with Hurricane Sandy Relief Money, so why not also fund the trans-hudson tunnel segments the same way?

What is the chance that in New Jersey's 2014 midterm elections, a bond act is put onto the ballot to fund part of the Gateway Project?
 
What does the Gateway Project have to do with Hurricane Sandy? Lets not steal funds that are needed for storm restoration to fund a project that has nothing to do with storm restoration.
That was what I was wondering. I'm sure NYMTA, NJT, PATH, etc. have storm-related needs that would sit far higher on a list of priorities.
 
Is this the tunnel the Gov Christie of NJ cancelled? If so, charge everyone getting off in NJ and extra $15.00 ..... or better yet, No Stops In NJ !!!!!
Clearly people are quite unaware of the details of the whole ARC fiasco and pass such simplistic judgements based on lack of knowledge.
No that was a different tunnel that would have been completely unusable by Amtrak.

Besides why would you charge NJ for this when NY never contributed a penny to ARC except for a fixed capped amount via PANYNJ? Is NJ now supposed to be the welfare donor of last resort for the region, and is NJ not a net donor state in the federal pool? As it turned out, due to unbelievable mismanagement driven by a combination of inattention and hubris (IMHO) of the previous administration, NJ became the sole bearer of all responsibility for the tunnel, which made no sense. It was a result of Warrington's overreach, after he screwed the pooch at Amtrak and came over to NJ Transit. Warrington needed some adult supervision which was not forthcoming from Corzine, who appointed Warrington.

Actually, we the rail advocates of both NY and NJ and at the national level, campaigned mightily to get ARC cancelled, and as it turns out, Christie was the only person who could do so and he did so for reasons that were a bit odd looking from outside. But the action resonated positively in NJ, since all cost overruns were to become NJ's responsibility. The real estate acquisition budget for the project had already been blown with considerable additional real estate yet to be acquired.

It also had some real strange Corzine style financial dealings involved, which was borderline illegal and would have gotten stuck in courts for years. We were actually in the process of getting the ball rolling had Christie not cancelled it. So all in all it was good that it got cancelled. It really was the result of a long drawn out grassroots effort, which was ready to go the course had Christie not cancelled it.

As far as Amtrak goes, its hands were politically tied to a project they did not want to happen. Unfortunately many of its patrons in Washington were advocates for this ill conceived tunnel project. No one at Amtrak was displeased with the cancellation of ARC. That in fact put Amtrak back in the drivers seat.

What does the Gateway Project have to do with Hurricane Sandy? Lets not steal funds that are needed for storm restoration to fund a project that has nothing to do with storm restoration.
I agree. Sandy relief fund has nothing to do with Gateway. Sandy Relief funding is supposed to fix infrastructure destroyed by Sandy and to build protective structures to prevent similar flooding from happening the next time. Using those funds to build a new tunnel, is exactly the sort of thing that gives the perpetrators a bad name through misuse of funds.
Protecting the current tunnels is legitimate use of funds and that involves building higher barrier walls around John D. Caemmerer West Side Yard and protective dykes around Sunnyside Yard and East River Tunnel entrances in Queens, facing the river. Those are all in the plans, but digging a new tunnel is not part of that plan. It also involves massive dyke building and power substation raising projects for both PATH and Amtrak/NJ Transit in the Jersey Meadows, as well as building protective barriers at FEMA + 2 level around NJT MMC and PATH Harrison Facility, both of which faced flooding from Sandy. Additionally NJT has already contracted for use of two yards one along the NEC and another in the Hoboken Division for evacuating equipment to for the next storm, out of flooding's way.
 
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What does the Gateway Project have to do with Hurricane Sandy? Lets not steal funds that are needed for storm restoration to fund a project that has nothing to do with storm restoration.
The Gateway Project will travel through flood zones. Half of that $10 billion is for "future storm mitigation." The tunnel box is being funded with Hurricane Sandy Relief Money, so why not also fund the trans-hudson tunnel segments the same way?
No. It is funded through a special single item added for that purpose by Senator Lautenberg. It does not give a free reign to anyone to redirect any fund from the Storm Relief to build new tunnels. Try that and watch even non-NE democrats vote a rescission of part of that fund.
What is the chance that in New Jersey's 2014 midterm elections, a bond act is put onto the ballot to fund part of the Gateway Project?
Zero. And if it was there I'd campaign and vote against it. I would expect nothing to happen until the Tier 1 PEIS is completed and funding responsibilities are negotiated among the members of the NEC Commission.
 
1. Are you saying that funding (besides from the Port Authority and maybe some from the MTA) will just have to come from Washington's annual appropriations? If so, how would Amtrak be able to lobby for Gateway Money--and receive a LOT of money from Washington--with all of the recent gridlock in Washington?

2. What is the chance or probability that Amtrak is not able to receive money from Washington for the Gateway Project--even if Gateway is urgently needed?
 
At this point it is pretty much all just speculation. No major funding streams have been lined up. There is no assurance that the Gateway Project will be constructed. I am pretty confident that if any major news comes out regarding this project, any number of the quite knowledgeable members of this forum will post such information. No need to ask the same (mostly unanswerable) questions repeatedly.
 
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