Acela II RFP information announcement

[jis]

http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12373180/alstom-unveils-final-acela-line-model

.. . . . . .

New documents obtained by The Spectator outline added design benefits of the new train line, which include one-third more passenger seats; half-hourly service facilitated by the ordering of more trainsets; a smoother ride comparable to international high-speed train service; as well as customer amenities like Wi-Fi access, personal outlets, USB ports and adjustable reading lights at every seat, enhanced food service car service and handicap accessibility.

Originally, company timelines put delivery of the first train-car shells in November of this year. At Friday's announcement a more solid timeline was established. The first trainset prototype will be ready for testing in 2019 and the first trainset will enter revenue service in early 2021, with all trainsets in service and the current fleet retired in early 2022.

. . . . . .

 

[Acela150]

Question and this may be right up Jis' ally or TR7's. What is the definition of a "prototype trainset"?? On top of that is it fair or unfair to say that this may be the set being built overseas per the FRA Waiver? On top of that, I would imagine that this TS would be for testing of top speeds, speeds that would be allowed in Revenue service e.g. curve speeds, tilt angles on each curve, the whole nine. I will say that I would hope and hope big that this set will be retrofitted as it would be in Revenue service and be put on public display for feed back from the public.

One thing that has recently crossed my mind is that back in the early 90's when Amtrak leased trains from Sweden (X2000), Germany (ICE), and France (Talgo) the one thing that I think would tremendously benefit HSR in the states is something that the X2000 has. Self Steering trucks. I think the only units that have such a thing are believe it or not Freight units. I know that the old Conrail SD80MAC's have them. So I have to ask if freight units have them, granted a small number, why shouldn't a High Speed Trainset have them?? I can only imagine how much time savings that would bring.

 

[jis]

The relevant definition of prototype from Merriam-Webster:

"a first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction (such as an airplane) "

Remember, this design brings together a few technical components that have not been married together in this way in the past. So it will need to go through a certain amount of debugging and such. And of course it will most likely be used to complete the safety case for certification for operation at target speeds and to establish that it can meet the RFP requirements adequately too, before line production is started.

Don't know enough about the pros and cons of self steering trucks to make much of any intelligent statement except to observe the old dictum that was taught to us at Bell Labs over and over again: A component that is not in the system will never fail and will have zero maintenance cost, so think hard before adding a component about whether its addition is justified for fulfilling the requirements specified in the requirements spec.

 

[PVD]

Or as those of us in the field used to hear when the salesmen promised the customers features that no one else had: "They swear it worked in the lab"

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Id say what Jishnu is saying is simply another way to state the KISS principle. Anyone who has had a long relationship with a Mercedes-Benz automobile can give you a really long rant about the advantages and disadvantages of adhering to that principle. And trust me, the list is long on both the pro and con sides.

BUT- and this is really important when dealing chronically underfunded Amtrak- while choosing not to adhere to the KISS principle can very often get you a better in-service performance, it will always increase both maintenance cost and downtime.

 

[Acela150]

The relevant definition of prototype from Merriam-Webster:

"a first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction (such as an airplane) "

Remember, this design brings together a few technical components that have not been married together in this way in the past. So it will need to go through a certain amount of debugging and such. And of course it will most likely be used to complete the safety case for certification for operation at target speeds and to establish that it can meet the RFP requirements adequately too, before line production is started.

Don't know enough about the pros and cons of self steering trucks to make much of any intelligent statement except to observe the old dictum that was taught to us at Bell Labs over and over again: A component that is not in the system will never fail and will have zero maintenance cost, so think hard before adding a component about whether its addition is justified for fulfilling the requirements specified in the requirements spec.

Makes plenty of sense to me. I would imagine this is due to the heavy standards set by the FRA?

I think that one thing that should happen is that should it be set up as it would be in revenue service, is that Amtrak should put it on display at several key stations, DC, Philly, Boston, try to fit NYP in if possible. That way customers can provide feedback on what they would like to see changed or vise versa.

 

[jis]

These will be Tier III, so not much of the traditional FRA standard. They will be close to off the shelf European stuff which already meet buff strength requirements close to those required for FRA Tier I anyway. So there is no reason for them to be significantly heavier than European stuff.

TGVs in general do not have independently steering axles anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[frequentflyer]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/production-of-next-generation-acela-express-fleet-underway.html

So its not a Pendolino, its a TGV power cars, with next gen TGV propulsion, Pendolino tilt mechanism with AGV cars. That's what we call a "mutt" in the USA. But since non of this is experimental should work like a charm.

From the article-

Amtrak initially favoured a Pendolino derivative’, Sherin explained, but ‘we were able to persuade them otherwise, partly because a move to a multiple-unit fleet would require significant alterations to depot facilities’. The Avelia Liberty is also designed to allow extra intermediate cars to be added without any mechanical or electrical alterations to the train.

Whats different from the Pendolino and what modification would it had required for depots? How does one easily add cars to a unit train that shares boogies?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They arent going with distributed power? I think that is a very poor choice. He says as the major understatement alarm goes haywire.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/production-of-next-generation-acela-express-fleet-underway.html

From the Railway Gazette article-

They will incorporate Alstom’s Tiltronix anticipatory tilting technology, and a crash energy management system meeting the latest FRA crashworthiness guidelines.

Alstom’s Vice-President for Marketing & Strategy in North America Scott Sherin told Railway Gazette that the Avelia Liberty design blended experience from various high speed trains supplied internationally over recent years.

‘The trailers are based on the AGV bodyshell used in Italy and the tilt equipment is derived from our Pendolino family, while we expect the compact power car design to be selected for SNCF’s next generation of TGVs’, he said. By opting for power cars with unpowered intermediate trailers, Alstom has continued the arrangement used for the existing fleet of 20 Acela Express trains supplied by a consortium of Alstom and Bombardier in 1998-2001.

Could Railway Gazette be subtly offering an opinion in this news article, by pointing out that the power car-trailers on order follow a somewhat stale precedent?

 

[DSS&A]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/production-of-next-generation-acela-express-fleet-underway.html

From the article-

Amtrak initially favoured a Pendolino derivative, Sherin explained, but we were able to persuade them otherwise, partly because a move to a multiple-unit fleet would require significant alterations to depot facilities. The Avelia Liberty is also designed to allow extra intermediate cars to be added without any mechanical or electrical alterations to the train.

Whats different from the Pendolino and what modification would it had required for depots? How does one easily add cars to a unit train that shares boogies?

In Europe, the railroad phrase "depot" is used to describe what railroaders in the USA call "maintenance building and shop facilities" and not "train stations".

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I caught that part. I just distinctly remember a lot of the discourse from upper management about the problems of the Acela included its inadequate acceleration on the curved NEC, and need to switch to distributed power as a way to rectify that.

The 40 year old Arrow III cars blow an Acelas doors off out of a station, and they werent even intended to be fast. I see whats before me, and I believe it because idiocy beats sense every bloody time. But I cant stand watching it yet again.

 

[VT Hokie]

While an EMU like the Arrow III is faster off the line, so to speak, the Acela is no slouch when it comes to acceleration. I imagine these new true TGV derivatives will perform even better.

 

[jis]

We will see how these things perform. What I do know is that TGVs with non-distributed power are quite capable of pinning you to your seat when they accelerate full blast.

There is a maintenance and operating cost tradeoff between concentrated power and distributed power. The RFP required proposals for meeting specific operating goals possibly with a requirement for providing maintenance with specific MDBF goals. Alstom decided to propose what it did to meet those requirements. It is hard to question their decision sitting firmly in our arm chairs based on very incomplete knowledge of the various issues involved and how they price out.

 

[neroden]

Well, going with old-school power cars is decidedly *retro*, but look on the bright side -- it's a less bad decision than attempting to keep running P42s rather than buying modern diesels.

 

[A Voice]

It is hard to question their decision sitting firmly in our arm chairs based on very incomplete knowledge of the various issues involved and how they price out.

When has that ever stopped us before..... :unsure:

Of course, its a fact they got the carbody shape all wrong. Budd proved nearly fifty years ago that modern railcars are supposed to be round.

Well, going with old-school power cars is decidedly *retro*, but look on the bright side -- it's a less bad decision than attempting to keep running P42s rather than buying modern diesels.

While Jis' wisdom correctly applies here too, we do know there are valid arguments in favor of rebuilding existing locomotives (note that the major freight carriers also have rebuild programs, while sales of new-build freight units are down, for more than one reason).

 

[jis]

It is hard to question their decision sitting firmly in our arm chairs based on very incomplete knowledge of the various issues involved and how they price out.

When has that ever stopped us before..... :unsure:

Of course, its a fact they got the carbody shape all wrong. Budd proved nearly fifty years ago that modern railcars are supposed to be round.

That idea that railroad cars must look line airplane fuselages with tiny windows, was the timeless contribution from the Volpe Center and Budd that lives on with us. Fortunately nothing new is following that pattern.

 

[west point]

The major difference of power cars and distributed power probably comes with MYBF rates. How much of a distributed power train can continue operating with multiple failures of traction motors, inverters, control equipment, etc. ? Really depends on what reliability specifications for equipment. Of course some failures will shut a train set down. Another consideration which may be is the amount of maintenance personnel for each type. It gets much higher for more cars added in the future ?

 

[Acela150]

I think the thing that is simply wild to me, is that the prototype set will be here before you know it.. The Sprinters arrival came pretty quickly as well. We'll see how long it'll be at TTCI before it makes its way to the NEC.

 

[Andrew]

How long and tall will the locomotives and coaches be?