ACS-64 and VL II's... Status?

[Guest]

Looking at this photo, I *still* can't tell how many roomettes the bag/dorm cars are going to have. It's not clear to me where the baggage door goes and it's not clear to me where the shower and bathroom go. I've been trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure out how many extra roomettes are likely to be added to various trains when these enter service.

From the photo there appears to be a baggage door on the far end of the car (away from the camera.) There are also four sets of windows on that side along with the opening to insert the prefab rooms. Depending on if there is a roomette behind that opening or not... there could be 8 or 10 roomettes in these baggage/dorm cars.

The bag/dorms will have 9 roomettes. If one is standing in the vestibule or "B" end of the car looking towards the baggage area, the odd numbered rooms 1-9 would be on the left starting just inside the door. The even numbered rooms 2-8 would be on the right with room #2 opposite #3.

The shower is next to room 9, while the bathrooms are next to room 8. After opening the internal door between the crew area and the bag area, there will be two luggage modules on each side, followed by baggage loading doors on each side, followed by two more luggage modules on each side.

OK. Thank you very much. So we have a pair of windows and a roomette in the "plug" for inserting units, and the bathroom and shower on the "far side" of the plug. Tell me if I have this picture right.

v=vestibule

r=restroom

s=shower

b=baggage

d=baggage door

p = "plug"

p

v 1 3 5 7 9 s | b b d b b

v ? 2 4 6 8 r | b b d b b

Two questions:

(1) What's opposite room #1?

(2) This really doesn't sound like much luggage space; less than half the length of the car. This raises questions of usage.

For example, the bag-dorm won't be able to substitute for a full baggage car on the NY section of the LSL (during the summer, it would fill up just with the baggage destined for Syracuse alone). Will it, perhaps, be used *in addition* to a full baggage car? Similar questions arise on the Silver Meteor, which has high baggage loadings in the summer.

The general assumption -- due to high demand and high prices -- has been that the LSL will get an additional full sleeper as well as a bag-dorm. Adding this to the existing consist -- without removing any baggage cars! -- you could end up with an *extremely* long train, 15 cars plus power. At that point it will be making double stops at pretty much every single intermediate station; perhaps even Albany!

 

[Nathanael]

It was made clear in the earlier versions of Amtrak's Fleet Strategy Plan that Amtrak fully intends to sell excess space in the bag-dorms to revenue passengers.

I constructed a spreadsheet based on the best information I had. I took Amtrak's coach attendant allocations from its manual. I guessed 5 crew in the diner and 1 in the cafe/lounge (from observation). I guessed 4 for the diner/lounge on the Cardinal, though that was a wild-ass guess.

The excess space is going to be at most 1 room in most cases; perhaps 2 occasionally, possibly as many as 3 on the Cardinal. Unless the LSL gets two Bag-Dorms, there's never going to be more "excess rooms" than that on any train. This small a number of rooms can be handled by the sleeper attendant for the adjoining car, as it already is when selling Trans-Dorm rooms on Superliners.

I doubt that Amtrak is going to allow $400+ roomette spaces (Lake Shore Limited prices...) to be used as offices for the Conductor (who has no office now), and they're certainly not going to leave them completely empty.

 

[Nathanael]

FWIW, with the new Viewliners having one fewer revenue roomette than the old Viewliners, servicing one extra roomette in the dorm car... is actually servicing the same number of rooms as the sleeper attendant services now.

 

[battalion51]

Nathanael, you're just a bit off in you're estimate. A typical east coast crew has:

1. Lounge LSA
2. Diner LSA
3. Diner Waiter
4. Diner Waiter (sometimes)
5. Chef
6. Food Specialist
7. Coach Attendant
8. Coach Attendant

So that leaves one room (two max) open. Doesn't really seem like it'd be worth the effort to put one revenue passenger in there, especially when there could be additional crew members due to training or heavy loads. That extra room will probably be a Conductor Office most of the time...

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guess the HHP-8 is the G4500 of Amtrak. It looks cool but runs poorly.

I don't actually even think it looks that cool. It's way too plasticky for my taste.

The G4500 is plasticky too, so I know what you mean.

 

[AlanB]

Also, I don't foresee the bag/dorm taking the place of too many full baggage cars. Instead I think the idea is that they will supplement space on most routes where space can be tight. So for example on the Meteor going north you could put all of your New York and Washington bags in the dorm and then put everything else in the main baggage car. The only train I can really envision the full baggage car going away on is the New York side of the LSL. Since the vast majority of the OBS is headed to NYP you send the dorm that way and put any NYP bound bags there. The Boston side keeps the full baggage car and you work it that way. That's just my crazy thought though, we'll see how things actually pan out once they start rolling off the line...

I foresee the bag dorms replacing the existing full bags on all single level routes, save the bag going to Boston. Amtrak has no choice, they simply don't have enough bags & bag/dorms to get the job done. Already there are nights where 66/67 runs without a bag because Amtrak doesn't have a spare bag left to press into service. Currently OTOL lists 64 active bags in the fleet.

Amtrak plans to retire all of those current bags.

Amtrak ordered 80 new bags, 25 of which are bag/dorms. That's only 16 more cars; most of which Amtrak wants to use to have more spares and maybe add baggage to a few routes. If they place a full bag and a bag/dorm on the Silvers, that eats up 8 bags out of that 16 extra just to equip that route with 2 bags per train. Do the same with the Crescent and now you're down to just 4 extra spare cars.

I don't see that happening.

Right or wrong, the idea was that the shelving units will allow these new cars to carry more baggage compared to the existing cars, where the conductors just make big piles on the floor, but lose most of the vertical space since you can't pile the luggage very high. And Amtrak based its calculations on that idea, that this bag/dorm can fulfill the role of a full bag on the Silvers, Crescent, and Cardinal. I'm not sure if the LSL will get 2 bag/dorms, or 1 full bag to/from Boston and a Bag/Dorm to NYP.

 

[AlanB]

OK. Thank you very much. So we have a pair of windows and a roomette in the "plug" for inserting units, and the bathroom and shower on the "far side" of the plug. Tell me if I have this picture right.
v=vestibule

r=restroom

s=shower

b=baggage

d=baggage door

p = "plug"

p

v 1 3 5 7 9 s | b b d b b

v ? 2 4 6 8 r | b b d b b

Two questions:

(1) What's opposite room #1?

(2) This really doesn't sound like much luggage space; less than half the length of the car. This raises questions of usage.

For example, the bag-dorm won't be able to substitute for a full baggage car on the NY section of the LSL (during the summer, it would fill up just with the baggage destined for Syracuse alone). Will it, perhaps, be used *in addition* to a full baggage car? Similar questions arise on the Silver Meteor, which has high baggage loadings in the summer.

More like this:

P ^ ^
V 1 3 5 7 9 C S | B B D D B B
^ ^ End door
V E 2 4 6 8 R R | B B D D B B
Where building on your definition list:

E = electrical box/room

And ^ indicates that both exist within the space taken by 1 module. So for example, there are two restrooms within the space that would normally be taken by one roomette.

Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains. Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.

The general assumption -- due to high demand and high prices -- has been that the LSL will get an additional full sleeper as well as a bag-dorm. Adding this to the existing consist -- without removing any baggage cars! -- you could end up with an *extremely* long train, 15 cars plus power. At that point it will be making double stops at pretty much every single intermediate station; perhaps even Albany!

I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL. Card might get one. Pennsy is supposed to get one. And 66/67 is supposed to get one. That plus more spares pretty much maxes things out.

 

[Acela150]

If 66/67 gets a sleeper will it keep the BC/Cafe car?

 

[AlanB]

If 66/67 gets a sleeper will it keep the BC/Cafe car?

It had that car before it lost the sleeper, so I'm not sure why they'd take it away if they put a sleeper back.

 

[SubwayNut]

Is the plan for the baggage car to still have a bike rack as well?

I know that was in one of the early proposals.

 

[Nathanael]

Thanks for the details.

Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains.

In the high season, the baggage loads to NYC easily fill a car by themselves. And the baggage loads west of NYC... easily fill a car by themselves. I guess they'll just have to double up with two full baggage cars and a bag-dorm west of Albany. Or I suppose they could do one full baggage car and TWO bag-dorms, but there don't seem to be enough bag-dorms on order.

Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.

It still won't be enough in midsummer.
From what I've read, baggage loads have stayed relatively light on the Crescent and the Cardinal (so both would probably be fine with a single bag-dorm) but on the NY section of the LSL, baggage loads are enormous. Perhaps it's the high volume of passengers connecting to/from Western trains.

I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL.

A seasonal rotation would make sense if the high season for the Star is in the winter.

I fiddled around with a spreadsheet in an attempt to increase the roomette availablity of each of the eastern trains by roughly the same percentage. The Cardinal *more than doubles* roomette availability just by adding the bag-dorm, so it would probably be overtesting the market to give it an extra sleeper immediately.

I've sort of been assuming that each of the other Viewliner trains will get one extra sleeper, more or less. That's (4 + 4 + 4 + 3). After the Viewliner Is are retrofitted to the configuration of the Viewliner IIs (as rumored), this roughly doubles capacity for every train except the Meteor (60% increase) and the Boston section of the LSL (slight reduction). This leaves enough for one Pennsy sleeper (3), and one on 66/67 (2), and spares (5).

It's possible that instead of an extra LSL sleeper the Pennsy would get 2 sleepers; that comes out much the same from my standpoint -- it's end-to-end NY-Chicago capacity, and ends up freeing roomettes (and lowering prices) for upstate NY.

I think the value of having enough capacity on Chicago-East Coast service is higher than the value of having enough capacity on Florida-NY service due to *connections*.

The Florida trains are stub ends. The Chicago-East Coast trains are core network links feeding passengers to the western and Chicago Hub trains. It would be very unwise of Amtrak to shortchange NY-Chicago capacity in favor of Florida capacity. (Unfortunately, the Cardinal, with its very long routing and three-a-week service, doesn't really count as connecting Chicago-East Coast capacity.) As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not taking a western trip this year partly because the cost to get to Chicago is so high.

 

[Nathanael]

Hmm. Of course if two sleepers are added to the Pennsy, and if a lot of people switch from the LSL to the Pennsy, it might be that the baggage load from the LSL ALSO shifts to the Pennsy, in which case the LSL could live with a bag-dorm on the NY end, but the Pennsy would need a baggage car.

 

[AlanB]

Is the plan for the baggage car to still have a bike rack as well?I know that was in one of the early proposals.

As far as I know that is still the plan, at least for the full baggage cars. Not sure if the Bag/Dorms will have one shelving unit replaced with a bike rack.

 

[AlanB]

Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains.

In the high season, the baggage loads to NYC easily fill a car by themselves. And the baggage loads west of NYC... easily fill a car by themselves. I guess they'll just have to double up with two full baggage cars and a bag-dorm west of Albany. Or I suppose they could do one full baggage car and TWO bag-dorms, but there don't seem to be enough bag-dorms on order.

I have no idea how they're going to make things work, although I will say that the last few times I rode the LSL baggage seemed to be down from the levels in years past, but the simple reality is that Amtrak isn't going to have enough bags of any type to put three on the LSL.

Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.

It still won't be enough in midsummer.

From what I've read, baggage loads have stayed relatively light on the Crescent and the Cardinal (so both would probably be fine with a single bag-dorm) but on the NY section of the LSL, baggage loads are enormous. Perhaps it's the high volume of passengers connecting to/from Western trains.

Again, it may not be enough, but I don't know where they're going to find more baggage cars to add an extra one to the LSL. At least not without exercising at least one option on the Viewliner II order.

I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL.

A seasonal rotation would make sense if the high season for the Star is in the winter.

It is. For years Amtrak played that game sending the extra sleeper south in the Winter and west in the Summer. They stopped doing so because demand on the LSL was going through the roof year round, not just in the summer. And in both directions, whereas the Silver's the extra car was really only needed in one direction, south in the fall and north in the spring.

I fiddled around with a spreadsheet in an attempt to increase the roomette availablity of each of the eastern trains by roughly the same percentage. The Cardinal *more than doubles* roomette availability just by adding the bag-dorm, so it would probably be overtesting the market to give it an extra sleeper immediately.
I've sort of been assuming that each of the other Viewliner trains will get one extra sleeper, more or less. That's (4 + 4 + 4 + 3). After the Viewliner Is are retrofitted to the configuration of the Viewliner IIs (as rumored), this roughly doubles capacity for every train except the Meteor (60% increase) and the Boston section of the LSL (slight reduction). This leaves enough for one Pennsy sleeper (3), and one on 66/67 (2), and spares (5).

Five spares aren't enough! Five spares isn't even enough for the planned number of spare cars sitting in the yards, much less for inspection work and major repairs. So that plan isn't going to work. Amtrak wants to have 2 spares in SNY, 2 in Hialeah, 1 in CHI, and 1 in NOL. Right now it's rare that CHI has one, and NOL isn't even in the plan.

Then at any given time right now, at least 2 cars must be out of service (OOS) for annual inspections. That will have to increase 3 now with the extra 25 sleepers. And you'll need 3 out at any given time at least, may have to be 4, for 92 day inspections. So that's at a minimum, 11 sleepers that on any given day are not available for use.

At the bottom of this page is an interesting table showing the old utilization of the Viewliner sleepers from about 10 years ago. This gives you some idea of the current plan that Amtrak operates under, even though as I noted its rare that CHI actually has a spare sitting there.

It's possible that instead of an extra LSL sleeper the Pennsy would get 2 sleepers; that comes out much the same from my standpoint -- it's end-to-end NY-Chicago capacity, and ends up freeing roomettes (and lowering prices) for upstate NY.

With no dining car, I suspect that the Pennsy would only get 1 sleeper.

 

[afigg]

In the high season, the baggage loads to NYC easily fill a car by themselves. And the baggage loads west of NYC... easily fill a car by themselves. I guess they'll just have to double up with two full baggage cars and a bag-dorm west of Albany. Or I suppose they could do one full baggage car and TWO bag-dorms, but there don't seem to be enough bag-dorms on order.

Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.

It still won't be enough in midsummer.
From what I've read, baggage loads have stayed relatively light on the Crescent and the Cardinal (so both would probably be fine with a single bag-dorm) but on the NY section of the LSL, baggage loads are enormous. Perhaps it's the high volume of passengers connecting to/from Western trains.

How efficiently are heritage baggage cars loaded in terms of making use of the available volume of storage space? From what I have observed, not very efficiently at all, say, compared to an airliner. If they just pile the bags up on the floor, that is making poor use of the vertical volume capacity of a baggage car. If the new baggage cars and shelve module are designed right, they should allow for better use of the storage volume, better separation of bags by destination, and more efficient loading and unloading of bags. It is not the 1950s anymore.
As for adding a full baggage car to a train with a bag-dorm (except for the combined LSL), that adds cost to running the train. That should be something which is only done on special occasions or at the peak of the peak periods where they know there will be more baggage than the baggage-dorm car can hold. The goal should be to be efficient in the LD train operations and not carry dead space & weight. Amtrak did tighten up the rules on number and size of checked baggage last year. if people want to check more than 2 large bags, take a page from the airlines and hit them up for it.

 

[afigg]

Again, it may not be enough, but I don't know where they're going to find more baggage cars to add an extra one to the LSL. At least not without exercising at least one option on the Viewliner II order.

Is there any information on when the CAF order option would expire in the current contract? I think it is safe to say that Amtrak is not likely to exercise any part of the option while sequestration is in effect and the FY13 budget is unsettled. Then there is the FY14 budget for Amtrak and the PRUUA re-authorization which could drag on for a long time with continuing resolutions. If by sometime in CY 2014, the budget situation has settled enough for Amtrak to exercise part of the option and order 15-20 additional cars, will they be able to do so under the current contract? I suspect the answer is that is not public information.

 

[jis]

Is there any information on when the CAF order option would expire in the current contract? I think it is safe to say that Amtrak is not likely to exercise any part of the option while sequestration is in effect and the FY13 budget is unsettled. Then there is the FY14 budget for Amtrak and the PRUUA re-authorization which could drag on for a long time with continuing resolutions. If by sometime in CY 2014, the budget situation has settled enough for Amtrak to exercise part of the option and order 15-20 additional cars, will they be able to do so under the current contract? I suspect the answer is that is not public information.

I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.

Any outfit that does final planning based on Authorizations is completely out of its mind IMHO. It is almost guaranteed that what is authorized will not be appropriated.

 

[afigg]

I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.
Any outfit that does final planning based on Authorizations is completely out of its mind IMHO. It is almost guaranteed that what is authorized will not be appropriated.

The issue with the next Authorization for Amtrak is not so much the specified max funding levels, because Amtrak never gets that much in the actual appropriations, but the requirements and framework that is the bill. The 2008 PRIIA act shifted operational subsidy funding for routes of < 750 miles to the states. Some Republicans in the House may add a rule that requires Amtrak to cancel any LD train with a total cost recovery of less than so many percent within 3 years or include other lines at attack on the LD trains. Force anti-LD train items to be in the bill in return for not forcing Amtrak to sell off the portions of the NEC they own. But that is getting off-topic for this thread, because until there are draft bills for the public to read, nothing to discuss. The immediate question is what will the final FY13 and FY14 appropriation amounts be for Amtrak and what will that mean for possible option orders from CAF?

 

[jis]

I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.
Any outfit that does final planning based on Authorizations is completely out of its mind IMHO. It is almost guaranteed that what is authorized will not be appropriated.

The issue with the next Authorization for Amtrak is not so much the specified max funding levels, because Amtrak never gets that much in the actual appropriations, but the requirements and framework that is the bill. The 2008 PRIIA act shifted operational subsidy funding for routes of < 750 miles to the states. Some Republicans in the House may add a rule that requires Amtrak to cancel any LD train with a total cost recovery of less than so many percent within 3 years or include other lines at attack on the LD trains. Force anti-LD train items to be in the bill in return for not forcing Amtrak to sell off the portions of the NEC they own. But that is getting off-topic for this thread, because until there are draft bills for the public to read, nothing to discuss. The immediate question is what will the final FY13 and FY14 appropriation amounts be for Amtrak and what will that mean for possible option orders from CAF?

You don't need an authorization bill for doing that though of course it could be used for such. You can achieve that by attaching an amendment to almost any random bill, as things go in Congress.

 

[Nathanael]

How efficiently are heritage baggage cars loaded in terms of making use of the available volume of storage space? From what I have observed, not very efficiently at all, say, compared to an airliner. If they just pile the bags up on the floor, that is making poor use of the vertical volume capacity of a baggage car. If the new baggage cars and shelve module are designed right, they should allow for better use of the storage volume, better separation of bags by destination, and more efficient loading and unloading of bags. It is not the 1950s anymore.

Well, yeah, but in August, I've seen three full, overloaded motorized baggage floats unloaded in Syracuse eastbound (and two loaded on!), and similar numbers at Rochester, and similar numbers at Buffalo. If the total area of shelving units in the bag-dorm have width about four times the width of a baggage car door, as it appears, then you can fit a little more than four floats per bag-dorm before you start putting bags in front of the shelves and making the shelves unreachable. This will require a full baggage car for sure, as you've filled up the capacity of a bag-dorm without adding any Boston baggage.
And in the summer I've seen really large amounts of baggage being unloaded in New York City (admittedly on a train which was hauling extra coaches marked for group travel). The baggage load adds up really quite fast in midsummer. And people will pay the fee for it.

Now that I think about it, Amtrak's most recent documents appear to call for retaining some of the Heritage baggage cars into 2015, which at the time I thought was odd. Perhaps these are intended for summer peak overflow, so that we'd see just a bag-dorm heading to NYC *most* of the time, but with a full baggage car added on during the peak of the peak. That would make sense.

Also, it's interesting to hear that the Silver Star has a winter peak; since the LSL has a very definite summer peak, I expect the rotating sleeper will be back.

 

[Mike Matthews]

Caught a glimpse of what looked like a new Amtrak car at Union Station in Chicago, single level with a second row of narrower windows across the real two-thirds of the car . . . would that have been a diner or a sleeper? Sure would be nice of the upper bunk in the roomette had windows!

Mike Matthews

Colorado Springs

Traveling Amtrak since 1984

 

[Ryan]

That's a Viewliner, which could have come in on the LSL or Cardinal. Probably a sleeper, although there is 1 Viewliner diner operating.

 

[engr08]

I guess he saw the 8400

 

[Ryan]

Far more likely a sleeper.

 

[jis]

From Gene Poon on TO:

On Thursday October 24, CAF and Amtrak will hold a media event at the CAF facility

in Elmira NY to publicize the new Amtrak Viewliner II equipment being built there.

Apparently the first units will be run in non-rev on all routes to familiarize staff with them before they are placed into service. Planning is in progress for the same. First deliveries in winter this year. We'll know more at the press event.