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zepherdude

OBS Chief
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
564
Location
Redding California
I guess this post is a official Rant and Rave!

I found a clip made by an ATL passenger about the length of the TSA lines. It was not about Amtrak and it had 2 four letter words, so I could not post it here. The lines went from security, down the hall, around the corner (s), down more halls, through open doors and finally more waiting locations. Why US passengers continue to put up with this frustration of flying, I will never know. If there was ever the time to back Amtrak and high speed rail, this is the time.

Yet Congress continues to block train travel, bash and treat Amtrak as a stepchild. Cutting services, food service cars, staffing issues and cheap and poor menu choices. Congress tries to squeeze blood from a turnip where Amtrak is concerned and I do not understand it. Seems like we should enhance rail travel, push Amtrak, increase speed and equipment from A to B.

Airlines pour billions of bucks into more equipment and systems and the TSA can not get pax to the gates and they miss flights and get so frustrated and disgusted. The TSA is the ultimate fear of flying.

I have no facts or numbers here, I am presenting these comments just from this video from a normal person fed up with flying, fed up with the TSA. America has the skills to make Amtrak work. For some stupid reason we continue to pour money into aircraft and blast Rail Transportation. Japan, China and Europe can make it happen. Why can't we?
 
I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
 
Transportation Security Administration - an oxymoron.

Fear mongering is an effective tool governments use to keep their populace in line.

TSA is an effective fear mongering tool.

How many terrorists or terrorists plots have you heard of that TSA has intercepted/thwarted since the establishment of the TSA?

Tests have repeatedly shown how easy it is for government agents to smuggle weapons on board commercial aircraft.

TSA routinely fails to detect 95% of those test weapons.

TSA is a joke that isn't funny.
 
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Strangely, I flew up to NY on Monday and managed to board the aircraft without getting stripped or pawed.

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.
Erm, aren't you a member of Pre-Check or the other frequent traveler security pre-clearance service?
 
From what I understand, the TSA has every right to set up shop in our stations and do the same screening done at the airports.
Yes, they do. If you wish to wander into the neighborhood of conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones' YouTube channel has videos of security thuggery allegedly occurring at 30th Street Station in PHL (and perhaps elsewhere). Generally, they leave security to Amtrak Police, other divisions in the Department of Homeland Security, and local law enforcement. I would imagine the airport security scenario is not too far off in the future, at least at some stations.
 
I saw the TV news reports on the airport TSA mess the past couple days,

and my fear is it will drive more people to Amtrak,

complicating life for we who are and have been Amtrak fans/riders.

Selfish, I know.
smiley_24.gif
 
From what I understand, the TSA has every right to set up shop in our stations and do the same screening done at the airports.
Yes, they do. If you wish to wander into the neighborhood of conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones' YouTube channel has videos of security thuggery allegedly occurring at 30th Street Station in PHL (and perhaps elsewhere). Generally, they leave security to Amtrak Police, other divisions in the Department of Homeland Security, and local law enforcement. I would imagine the airport security scenario is not too far off in the future, at least at some stations.
Alex Jones? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
 
I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
You may be guessing wrong ;) Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way. :p
And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.

Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA. ;)

Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.
 
Strangely, I flew up to NY on Monday and managed to board the aircraft without getting stripped or pawed.

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.
Erm, aren't you a member of Pre-Check or the other frequent traveler security pre-clearance service?
Recently yes. Before that, no. Still no stripping or pawing.
 
I've taken two round trips since I got Global Entry status, and once I had my arms and legs perfunctorily patted down, at O'Hare. (I suspect the TSA agents working the Pre-Check line were bored.) Those who see the glass as half-empty might refer to that as "pawed," but I wouldn't. I didn't take anything off except my watch, so I wouldn't say I was "stripped," either.
 
I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
You may be guessing wrong ;) Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way. :p
And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.

Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA. ;)

Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.
Um, well, I am not exactly a frequent flyer, but when I flew back east from Boise for my Dad's funeral, I had bad experiences in both directions (admittedly only one due to the TSA). Going eastbound, I walked through the scanner with a sport vest on. I did not know that a vest was "outerwear" (I took off my winter coat and hat). And they did not ask me to remove it. They just got me on the other side, and escorted me into a glass enclosure where, in full view of all the other passengers filing by, a woman agent asked me to remove my vest and quite thoroughly patted me down (yes, right up the insides of my thighs). I was in tears, crying "You could have just ASKED me to remove it BEFORE I went through the scanner!" Little Old Lady on the way to a funeral? Doesn't matter to them!

On the return trip, I had a three-part ticket with two Delta legs and a Northwest Airlines leg in the middle. Delta and Northwest were in the process of combining when I made the reservation, and I was assured that when I returned (after the merger), the ticket would present no problem. Riiiight.... I stood aside from the line while the agent at the desk tried frantically to get everyone ELSE on the flight, while talking to tech help on the phone trying to get the computer to issue me a boarding pass. Then as soon as my plane took off with my empty seat, she said "OK, NOW I can re-book you!" Of course, my carefully planned get-to-Boise-in-time-to-drive-home-that-evening was out the window, as I flew to LaGuardia, Memphis, Salt Lake and then Boise. And made it 50 miles out of the 200 home from the airport before getting a motel so I could crash.

After that, I swore never to fly again, unless it was the ONLY way to get where I needed to go. That was the case last summer, when I flew to France and back. The only discomfort was physical due to the tiny seats. I'm a little person, and I was crammed in, so I wonder how large people can tolerate it at all (well, the guy next to me did it by taking up a third of my space). But at least I was not subjected to humiliation or severe inconvenience, so that seems to be the luck of the draw. Jis, you've been lucky, and by now you know the rules. I hope you don't get into a position where knowing the rules is not enough, or the system just happens to not favor you that day. As for me, I will take Amtrak over flying any day.
 
I am guessing a large number of us in here have nothing to do with the airlines anymore (I haven't flown in 10 years and do not miss it a bit) and while airline pax get stripped and pawed before being tied into a thin seat with 30 inches of pitch, we are relaxing and enjoying our Amtrak travels.
You may be guessing wrong ;) Just because a few choose to be Luddites does not mean everyone is becoming that way. :p
And of course the bit about "stripped and pawed" is just an overstated fantasy of those that for unknown reason need to repeatedly justify their own choices about the mode of travel by dreaming up nonsense.
Right. Because TSA groping never happens. Much like full-body scan recordings weren't shared among various employees for their own gratification. Totally made-up.

Just for the heck of it let's hear from anyone here who has been stripped and pawed by TSA. ;)
Well, a rail travel message board probably isn't the first place to find such individuals. But plenty of other places abound.

Inconvenient due to long lines? Yes. Stripping and pawing? In general no. You may be thinking of Israeli security for those that get profiled and chosen for closer attention in an isolated room, rather than American TSA.
Except that Israeli security begins long before it gets to that point. By the time the closed-door screening is underway, multiple concerns have already been raised which haven't been allayed. With the TSA, security screening doesn't begin until the belts and shoes come off.
 
First of all I do not defend the TSA silliness. Second I think some of the comments here are generally over the top from people who have strong emotions about the matter rather than a level headed logical approach.

The reason I asked for people here is because it was stated that most people here have forsworn air travel apparently because they have been stripped and pawed. My comment was only countering that. I never said it does not happen occasionally. However that does not make it a common occurrence. So repeatedly setting up extreme strawmen and knocking them down does not achieve much.

Apparently, since this is an emotional issue here making a reasonable discussion impossible, this will be the last message on this matter from me. After all, if a few people choose to behave in a particular way it does not matter in the bigger scheme of things ;)
 
I don't fly often, but when I have, I have never had a problem going through security. Even when I forgot to take my small bag of "liquids" out of my bag and put it in the box. Granted, they seemed to look at my bags a little longer than normal (had a small laptop in another bag), but never questioned me. Even forgot to take my shoes off at another airport (small and not busy at that time), and nobody stopped me.

I'm not doubting things have happened to others, but it's like saying "I'm never taking the train again because one just crashed and some people were killed and/or injured." But we know trains are running all day and night without incidents.
 
I don't fly often, but when I have, I have never had a problem going through security. Even when I forgot to take my small bag of "liquids" out of my bag and put it in the box. Granted, they seemed to look at my bags a little longer than normal (had a small laptop in another bag), but never questioned me. Even forgot to take my shoes off at another airport (small and not busy at that time), and nobody stopped me.
I have a friend who flies 2-3 times/year. He notes that he almost always (outside of smaller airports) gets selected for secondary screening. He has his own theories as to why that is the case, but in any event he just accepts it as the way things are. If that happened more than two or three times to me, it would be enough to dissuade me from flying commercially, period. Particularly since one can almost never find out why you are being treated the way you are (much like the No-Fly List).

OTOH, I have another friend who travels frequently, occasionally internationally, and notes that whenever the TSA inspects her checked baggage, they always leave a card. I’ve talked to others who mention that they notice when the TSA has rifled through their bags and there is never a note or explanation left. Is my friend treated differently because she has a professional courtesy title before her name and a PhD after it? (Thus signaling to those that encounter her that they’d better play by all the rules.) It’s the vast inconsistencies that I think make those of us who wish to avoid that circus altogether do so.

I'm not doubting things have happened to others, but it's like saying "I'm never taking the train again because one just crashed and some people were killed and/or injured." But we know trains are running all day and night without incidents.
I think a more comparable example would be if a plane crashed and people were killed. A big part of the issue with those of us who don’t partake of commercial air travel is that there are—as mentioned above—so many inconsistencies. With Amtrak, the inconsistencies are with customer service. With the TSA (and partly the airlines), it’s about personal security and freedom and thus any inconsistencies are more pronounced. If the TSA asked someone to do something they were unwilling to do (or found an unacceptable item on person or carry-on) and the passenger were allowed to say “no, thanks” and walk away and then up to the airline ticket counter for a refund, then it would be a little less stressful. But knowing that the only way one is going to get from Point A to Point B on that day is to submit to whatever one is asked to do or risk losing their personal freedom for an indeterminate amount of time as well as the likely loss of financial outlay makes the action of using that form of transport a very serious consideration.

It used to be that joking about a bomb or attempting to carry an unauthorized firearm was the primary source of involuntary denied pre-boarding at the airport. Nowadays it’s still that, but can also be a number of other issues that the passenger likely has no way of foreseeing, particularly if they have played by all the rules or simply made an honest mistake.
 
The cards are -- or are supposed to be -- left by TSA agents inside EVERY bag that they physically open for a search. My golf bag always gets such a tag, and so does my suitcase if it is carrying any sports equipment or food items such as jars of peanut butter, salad dressing, or pure maple syrup. So far, no evidence that agents have physically opened the food items during their search.
 
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I think having any bottle full of some thick liquid catches their attention. The only times TSA has open searched my checked bag is when there was such a bottle in it. Well except that one time when I had packed a bunch of assorted electronic cables in it. :)

OTOH with hand bags, both the British and the Indian security folks are much much more intrusive, specially if there is more than one or two pieces of electronic stuff in it. Once it gets going it is a full blown take everything out of the bag and put it back again. And in India absolutely everyone gets a free massage ... er, a pat down.
 
I don't blame only the TSA for my resistance to flying as a means of transportation. The reasons for my dislike of flying are a whole stew of the following, and more:

  1. Unpleasant TSA experiences are likely, in my personal experience.
  2. Physical discomfort (small seats, large seatmates forcing me to lean to one side, constant noise and enforced lack of physical activity) is more than likely.
  3. If there is a hitch in travel plans, it is more difficult to get in touch with customer service, and a satisfactory resolution less likely, than with Amtrak.
  4. I am much more likely to get sick from breathing the air on an airplane than on a train.
  5. I am a sociable person. On trains, I tend to enjoy conversations, meet people I have things in common with, and occasionally make long-lasting new friends. That has not yet occurred on a plane.
And, last but not least, I PREFER traveling real-time on-the-ground, where I can admire the scenery of this beautiful country as I pass over the land, and appreciate the distances that I am traveling across. I would drive, too, but I prefer the more energy-efficient aspects of mass transit, and it's nice to have someone else doing the driving so I can admire the scenery without putting others on the road in danger, LOL. :giggle:
 
My last flight, and I do mean 'my last flight', I was packed in the plane tighter than a sardine in a can.

I was jammed up tight against the window and the woman next to me (in the middle seat) reeked of her favorite cologne.

Fortunately it was only a 90 minute flight.
 
I fly from Kauai to Honolulu several times a month and most of the local tas guys are embarrassed to pat me down since we have all known each other for years- it's a very small island. But coming home from Honolulu the other day took the cake. The guy f risked all the way up until he was holding a couple of things he shouldn't have been. I was about to punch him.
 
I have a friend who flies 2-3 times/year. He notes that he almost always (outside of smaller airports) gets selected for secondary screening. He has his own theories as to why that is the case, but in any event he just accepts it as the way things are. If that happened more than two or three times to me, it would be enough to dissuade me from flying commercially, period. Particularly since one can almost never find out why you are being treated the way you are (much like the No-Fly List).
For a few years before 9/11, it was seeming like every time I went through security, I was selected for the explosives residue screening (pads wiped on my hands and sometimes my carry-on bag). The only thing I could figure out was that I fit a profile as a man in my 20s with only a backpack as a carry-on.
 
I saw the TV news reports on the airport TSA mess the past couple days,

and my fear is it will drive more people to Amtrak,

complicating life for we who are and have been Amtrak fans/riders.

Selfish, I know.
smiley_24.gif
I would look at it as a good thing if more people were driven to Amtrak due to the TSA mess. I suspect there's a sizable percentage of Acela/NER customers who are taking the train for that reason. High load factors, while driving up your ticket price, are ultimately a good thing as rail travel becomes more relevant and normative for a greater number of people. That's what *should* ultimately lead to more rail service.

For instance, check out this article posted today in the Chicago Sun-Times. It reports that TSA waits exceeded two hours at O-Hare yesterday and today. Granted, for many of those people there is no viable rail alternative. But there must surely be people in those lines flying to places like Detroit, St. Louis, IND, MSP, etc. for whom there either is currently a good Amtrak choice, or would be if regional leaders stepped up their game. Many of those people are going to realize that they are spending longer in line at security than they are in the air. Some of those people are going to try the train next time. It's not just Amtrak that is capable of producing "never agains."
 
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