Amtrak dining and cafe service

[Mailliw]

I prefer actually getting up and going to the cafe car, but I do think at-seat service should be offered in Business Class (for complimentary drinks and buy-on-board). It would also benefit coach passengers because tge cafe car could go in the middle of the consist where it belongs!

Dining car is better than cafe car is better than cart service is better than vending machines is better than nothing.

 

[bobmcshea]

Thinking about the profitability of dining cars and cafe cars, department store do not make money of their elevators or escalators either! Would it be reasonable for them to disappear? Think about it!

 

[AmtrakFlyer]

You’re preaching to the choir unfortunately management doesn’t see the whole picture. Now with the crazy sleeper prices, the diner is a loss leader to put it in grocery store language. If Amtrak wants repeat passengers in sleeper class they need to justify the hefty fares they charge. If people remember the great food maybe they will be willing to travel again. The food is really the only amenity the western trains have left. At least the east coast trains have newer equipment. Our sleeper on the CZ this week was tired to say the least and we were greeted by graffiti in restrooms.

 

[jis]

It is worth remembering that our representatives in the House with the concurrence of the Senate and the President, collectively instructed Amtrak to make food service become non-loss making by 2020 and discontinue such if that could not be achieved. I know it is fun to blame Amtrak management but the choice that they had was to either abide by the law or break it, since as has been obvious for a while that it is not possible to make it a self standing profitable business unit by any standard accounting practices.

Unfortunately by the time that law was changed it was just in the nick of time for Covid to strike. At least now there is agreement across the board that food service need not be a self standing profitable business line and that food service should be restored to something like what it was before this madness was foisted on us by Representative Mica of Orlando FL while everyone else was snoozing apparently. Fortunately he managed to lose an election thus opening the path to removal of his misguided attempts to undermine Long Distance service.

 

[MARC Rider]

since as has been obvious for a while that it is not possible to make it a self standing profitable business unit by any standard accounting practices.

Even if food service were outsourced to a private restaurateur or catering company using non-union "coolie labor," there's still the costs involved with the purchase and maintenance of very expensive rolling stock called dining cars and lounge cars. And these rolling restaurants don't have the capacity of their land-based cousins, so their revenue potential is limited. Come to think of it, most restaurants in general aren't really self-standing profitable businesses, either, considering how many of them close after a short run. It's a really risky line of business, and to add to that the hassles of putting it into a specialized conveyance, it's crazy to think that such a service could make any sort of profit.

 

[railiner]

I don't understand how a coach cafe, on a busy Corridor train can be losing money. IIRC, a standard "Amcafe", if in the 84 seat full coach density, adding the cafe still yields 53 revenue seats, right? That's more seats than some Heritage long-distance chair cars had--44 seats. And with an almost continuous line of "take-out" customer's, paying inflated prices for the various offerings, added to the revenue seating, minus the salary for the LSA, how can they lose?

 

[jis]

I don't understand how a coach cafe, on a busy Corridor train can be losing money. IIRC, a standard "Amcafe", if in the 84 seat full coach density, adding the cafe still yields 53 revenue seats, right? That's more seats than some Heritage long-distance chair cars had--44 seats. And with an almost continuous line of "take-out" customer's, paying inflated prices for the various offerings, added to the revenue seating, minus the salary for the LSA, how can they lose?

Amtrak got rid of their Coach-Cafes long time back. They have very few if any at all left. Only Cafes that have revenue seats are the Club-Cafes, which are used as BC cars these days.

Also the way accounting is done as specified in a thick tome dveloped by the Volpe Center as assigned to do so by the FRA upon instructions from Congress, revenue seats do not count towards F&B revenues and LSA in Cafe counts towards revenue cost, not transportation cost. When we talk about Cafes making or losing money we are talking about F&B revenue and cost, not F&B + transport revenue and cost.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak got rid of their Coach-Cafes long time back. They have very few if any at all left. Only Cafes that have revenue seats are the Club-Cafes, which are used as BC cars these days.

Also the way accounting is done as specified in a thick tome dveloped by the Volpe Center as assigned to do so by the FRA upon instructions from Congress, revenue seats do not count towards F&B revenues and LSA in Cafe counts towards revenue cost, not transportation cost. When we talk about Cafes making or losing money we are talking about F&B revenue and cost, not F&B + transport revenue and cost.

I guess that proves that figures can be manipulated to prove any point, for or against....

 

[jis]

I guess that proves that figures can be manipulated to prove any point, for or against....

Indeed it is very important to understand what exact accounting sits behind any such claim, and special attention needs to be paid about which line items are allocated revenue/cost and for those, how the allocation is done. It gets pretty complicated pretty soon, making it quite easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the careless.

 

[west point]

It suddenly occurred to me that the service in diners is directly related to a train's revenue car counts. All the short train consists limits the number of extra OBS crew to help in the diners. One sleeper and two coaches would normally have just 2 OBS for the cars. How can they help in serving passengers ? Now for example, if there is a Crescent, LSL, Meteor, or Star with 3 - 4 sleepers and same number of coaches then maybe 3 - 4 OBS can be assigned help serve at serving times.. Other revenue car OBS spread out to cover double of normal cars. That enables a full clasic diner food service.

So IMO LD trains need to have enough cars with OBS persons to allow spliting them up to serve proper dinning service. With the present lack of equipment what does Amtrak do? Assign extra OBS or just continue diner lite? We may know soon. Any thoughts ?

 

[TheCrescent]

Is one reason that long distance dining cars lose money the relatively low volume of business in them?

With only two sleeping cars on many long distance trains, that’s a huge amount of overhead for just a few meals.

If that’s the case, then what I and others have proposed- expansions of sleeping car offerings to add a range of new rooms at a range of prices (particularly prices below current levels)- could also help dining cars lose less money (by bringing many more sleeping car passengers onboard).

 

[lordsigma]

Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)

Yes, and yes.

 

[Maverickstation]

Thinking about the profitability of dining cars and cafe cars, department store do not make money of their elevators or escalators either! Would it be reasonable for them to disappear? Think about it!

Actually yes, a number of Department Stores over the past year reduced their floor count, and thus have fewer escalators to maintain, and less strain on elevators. Stores from Bloomingdale's, to Boscov's, to Macy's, to Nordstrom, to Saks 5th Avenue, all have closed off entire floors in lower volume suburban locations with more than 1 floor. Speaking of Department Stores one reason why there are fewer and fewer restaurants in these stores is that while they were never expected to make money, they still had a budget to say within, and when the losses got out of hand, it was time to let them go.

Ken

 

[lordsigma]

Harris had done an interview in Trains where he made an interesting comment about flexible dining when discussing the return of traditional dining to the silvers. He seemed to hint that it may lose its cost advantage the longer the route is because the food costs per passenger per meal served for flexible dining is higher. So if you have a shorter route or a lower ridership route with less sleeping car passengers the lower labor costs probably ultimately offset any potential negative affect on ridership due to customer satisfaction and the higher food costs. But on the longer flexible dining routes the higher food costs per passenger (as there are more meal periods) and potential negative affects on customer satisfaction may offset savings from labor.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Is one reason that long distance dining cars lose money the relatively low volume of business in them?

I think the biggest reason is the labor costs + commissary costs at the terminals.

The operation of the diners is also an issue, they are not operated to maximize profits. Here are a few ways to maximize profits a

1- longer hours for meal service. Most restaurants don’t close between breakfast, lunch and dinner - they operate all day and never turn away customers.

2- advertise “room service” for sleeping car passengers so that more ask for it - that frees up space in the diner allowing more coach passengers to eat.

3- “at your seat” meals for coach passengers delivered by coach attendants. These were tested and proved successful.

4- encourage upsells. You want guests to order more drinks etc. give them time and encourage “another drink?”

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)

That is correct. While it's been a few years since I've ridden, it has a very good selection and since it is State subsidized, the prices are very reasonable.

 

[TheCrescent]

Quick vent: what I dislike most about Flexible Dining is that it’s INflexible. You are given dinner when the cafe car attendant wants you to have it. On the Crescent, if the regular staff is handling sleeping cars, that generally means 4:30pm.

Why can’t you be served dinner at one of several times: perhaps 5pm, 6pm or 7pm (or something other than “at whenever the cafe car attendant decides, regardless of what you want”)?

 

[Siegmund]

Has anyone here been on the Heartland Flyer? I thought I heard that train has a Superliner car that's unique to that train (coach on upper level cafe on lower level.)

Not unique - a total of eleven Superliner I coaches had snack bars added downstairs in the early 80s. They have had assignments on various short-distance trains (Seattle-Portland before the Talgos were built, San Joaquins before the California cars were built) and in happier times when the regular consist of the Coast Starlight was something like 3 sleepers and 5 coaches, one of the coaches farthest from the lounge was often a snack coach.

As far as I know, 8 or 9 of these cars still survive, but I don't know where the others are assigned, or if the snack bar is normally crewed.

 

[zephyr17]

Not unique - a total of eleven Superliner I coaches had snack bars added downstairs in the early 80s. They have had assignments on various short-distance trains (Seattle-Portland before the Talgos were built, San Joaquins before the California cars were built) and in happier times when the regular consist of the Coast Starlight was something like 3 sleepers and 5 coaches, one of the coaches farthest from the lounge was often a snack coach.

As far as I know, 8 or 9 of these cars still survive, but I don't know where the others are assigned, or if the snack bar is normally crewed.

I remember having a snack coach on the Pioneer.

 

[Siegmund]

I remember having a snack coach on the Pioneer.

May I ask if that was at the very beginning of the Superliner age, just after the time when the Pioneer had a Heritage sleeper and an Amdinette but Superliner coaches? Or was that the latter-day Denver Pioneer that ran up to 7 or 8 cars without a lounge?

 

[zephyr17]

May I ask if that was at the very beginning of the Superliner age, just after the time when the Pioneer had a Heritage sleeper and an Amdinette but Superliner coaches? Or was that the latter-day Denver Pioneer that ran up to 7 or 8 cars without a lounge?

Late stage, in the late 80s and 90s.

In the mid 80s, I think I recall having a Hi Level diner conversion to a diner/lounge on the Pioneer like they ran on the Desert Wind for awhile, but am not sure about that. I may be crossing up the Desert Wind and the Pioneer on a trip when I took both.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Texas Eagle had the snack coach back when it used to split. That would have been early 90’s I think.

Also, the Surfliner trains have bi-level snack coaches as well.

 

[railiner]

The original Superliner I order, were only in five configurations...Sleeper, Diner, Sightseer Lounge, Coach, and Coach-Baggage. They ran with Heritage baggage car(s), and a converted Hi-Level "Trans-Dorm-Coach". Modification's came later...CCC, Coach-Snack Bar, Coach-Smoking Lounge, etc. Not sure about the Auto Train 'Deluxe Sleeper'...if it was delivered with all deluxe bedrooms on upper level, or modified later.

 

[MARC Rider]

Quick vent: what I dislike most about Flexible Dining is that it’s INflexible. You are given dinner when the cafe car attendant wants you to have it. On the Crescent, if the regular staff is handling sleeping cars, that generally means 4:30pm.

Why can’t you be served dinner at one of several times: perhaps 5pm, 6pm or 7pm (or something other than “at whenever the cafe car attendant decides, regardless of what you want”)?

That's a very good point. Most of my flex meal experiences weren't so awful because I was coming to the diner and getting served dinner via a reservation, which was pretty much how things worked with traditional dining. OK, the food wasn't as good, but otherwise the train dining experience wasn't too much different from what I was used to. And for breakfast and lunch I just came to the diner at my own schedule (when it was open) and got served my flex meal. There was only one case on a crowded Capitol Limited (pre-Covid) when we had to line up at a specified time to get our tray of flex meals. You would think that on the trains with reduced sleeping car consists, it shouldn't be so hard for the smaller staff to serve the reduced number of passengers using the dining facilities, especially since a lot of people are eating in their rooms, anyway..