Amtrak dining downgrades vs United Airlines upgrades

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. Reading these comments up thread about its no longer viable to run a dining car from my understanding it was never a profitable endeavor to run a dining car on a long distance train.

Flying our major carriers anywhere over any ocean is a bad idea. There are so many other options that provide a way better experience.
 
However there are some significant financial advantages running into 4 figures (sometimes 5 figures) in complementary upgrades annually, to get appropriate level of status for life, which still makes it worthwhile flying on American carriers for a slightly inferior service, at least for those of us who are not infinitely rich but just well to do.
 
However there are some significant financial advantages running into 4 figures (sometimes 5 figures) in complementary upgrades annually, to get appropriate level of status for life, which still makes it worthwhile flying on American carriers for a slightly inferior service, at least for those of us who are not infinitely rich but just well to do.
That's a fair point. This year I should make AA executive platinum, so my long haul will most likely be on AA to take advantage of the upgrades in 2016. In 2017 I'm looking forward to cashing in some of my miles for a First Class redemption down to Australia something I could never pay for in cash.
 
I don't think this is a fair comparison. Reading these comments up thread about its no longer viable to run a dining car from my understanding it was never a profitable endeavor to run a dining car on a long distance train.
Correct. Airlines are highly profitable right now. That wasn't the case a few years ago, and when they were not profitable, food got cut, really to the bone. What United is announcing is a PARTIAL (and only a partial) retrenchment for that, and only on international flights which generally feature fairly high ticket prices that cover costs.

Amtrak's food service, like the private railroads that preceded it, is not profitable. It actually costs a lot more to provide food on a train (due to lack of volume, supply chain issues, and labor costs) than an airplane (where a whole lot of the food is supplied through hub airports with a ton of economies of scale) and it costs even more to provide a full service dining car. But more importantly, Amtrak itself, outside the Northeast Corridor, is not profitable. Indeed, it loses a lot of money. Amtrak is thus a lot more analogous to the airlines 10 years ago, when they were slashing food service and imposing all sorts of new fees and charges because they were losing money.

That's the key variable, not competition. United is doing this even on routes where it has the only nonstop service and thus doesn't have to worry so much about competitors. And United is not actually trying to compete with some of the foreign airlines who offer far better service than even the "improved" United service coming in June.

The reality is that all debates about the quality of Amtrak service (outside the Northeast corridor) revert to debates about what we want to subsidize, and that's just very different from the situation of the airlines. I don't mind subsidizing quite a lot, by the way-- in my perfect world, there would be far more rail subsidies and far more Amtrak service. But I'm skeptical about how much of it should go to dining cars....
 
I do not believe claims of airline profitability; I just remember what Warren Buffett said about the entire airline industry -- it's lost money over its entire history. If there are "profits" this year, they are riding off of capital investments made before the last bankruptcy, and aren't paying for capital replacement or maintenance.

They're going to be completely slammed into the wall by any increase in fuel costs, and their fleet is aging.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not believe claims of airline profitability; I just remember what Warren Buffett said about the entire airline industry -- it's lost money over its entire history. If there are "profits" this year, they are riding off of capital investments made before the last bankruptcy, and aren't paying for capital replacement or maintenance.

They're going to be completely slammed into the wall by any increase in fuel costs, and their fleet is aging.
Your point about airline fuel costs is correct.

But the airline industry has become profitable in part because of massive consolidation and cutting of routes. There are now (with the American-US Airways merger) only three legacy carriers, plus one low cost carrier large enough to matter (Southwest). Plus, airlines have used regional partners and commuter airlines to fly smaller planes on many routes. This means less competition on fares, and more crowded planes-- load factors are way over 80 percent, which wasn't true at all in the past. Most flights are full. Plus, they have cut the dickens out of their labor costs, and renegotiated union contracts in bankruptcy.

The industry is reaping the benefits of all this, and almost everyone is making a profit. And if you correlate when food service declined and when it came back up, it correlates almost precisely with when the industry suffered record losses and when it made record profits.

I think too many people on train discussion boards want to view Amtrak as if is divorced from its subsidies-- like it's just another transportation provider which should, of course, offer great service to attract people onto the trains whose ticket revenue will then benefit the company and allow it to flourish. That's not Amtrak's business model, and none of us want it to be, really-- if Amtrak had to charge travelers fares that would allow it to actually turn a marginal profit on each seat sold, fares would be much more expensive. But that IS the airlines' business model, even if they historically haven't had a lot of success with it. Outside of outlier programs like Essential Air Service, airlines aren't receiving direct operational subsidies from the government. They need to make a profit, or at least break even, long term, or they go out of business. Amtrak can remain in business while losing money indefinitely, so long as the public subsidy is not pulled.

Because Amtrak's business model is closer to that of a public bus system-- get their farebox recovery ratio as high as they can and then make up the rest through government subsidies-- it can't view food service as a way to differentiate itself from competitors and entice more travelers onto the train. Enticing more travelers onto the train doesn't necessarily make Amtrak money the way it makes an airline money, because Amtrak isn't necessarily making a profit when it sells a train ticket to a traveler. Obviously, Amtrak needs to provide decent customer service, but the main goal is to deliver as much rail transportation as its subsidies and farebox recovery will allow it to deliver.
 
Whether we like it or not, AFAICT Amtrak's charter talks about it being a national service provider that is run as a self standing private corporation, which to me seems to say that it is expected to stop getting operating subsidies at some point (Remember, Amtrak as originally conceived was just a train operating company. The infrastructure part was added on as an afterthought to clear the way for Conrail to become profitable). I haven't seen anywhere where it says that it must maximize service. The only requirement it has had was to maintain the core network and run additional experimental trains to see if they are viable, in its original incarnation.

The goals have changed several times since then, slowly tending towards forcing fulfillment of the no subsidy requirement for operations as far as federal subsidy is concerned, and dumping such on the states as much as possible.

There appears to be somewhat bipartisan agreement that critical infrastructure should be subsidized, but the details of how and how much remains murky. The question about subsidizing LD trains long term is yet to be answered. There appears to be a tacit agreement that at least in the short term they will be supported at current level, though that comes under attack at each opportunity.

As far as rolling stock goes, Congress seems to be explicitly saying that rolling stock needs to be funded out of farebox cashflow using preferred treatment tax free loans from various sources like RRIF etc. which may or may not be a viable way to do things specially for the LD side.

In short it is a mish mash of relatively poorly thought out, if thought out at all mess of stop gap measures, rather than any coherent plan.

Of course all this leaves food sservice in a limbo, specially when there develops a perception that a significant part of the operating subsidy goes in supporting F&B.
 
I have a couple photos to upload of UA's current TPAC service and I could swear I've seen people attach photos directly to a post but I cannot seem to find it. Do you need to upload your photos to your personal media list ahead of time before you begin creating a new post?
 
I have a couple photos to upload of UA's current TPAC service and I could swear I've seen people attach photos directly to a post but I cannot seem to find it. Do you need to upload your photos to your personal media list ahead of time before you begin creating a new post?
Go to more reply options then below the text box there should be buttons for uploading/adding the pics to the text box.
 
Do you need to upload your photos to your personal media list ahead of time before you begin creating a new post?
No. Just select "More Reply Options", click on the "Choose Files" button at the bottom, open the file (photo) from its location in your computer and then click "Add To Post" to the extreme right of the file name. No real need to Use PhotoBucket or other image hosting services if you don't want to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here are a couple photos of the current trans-Pacific coach service on UA.

The first example is the "pasta" dinner option. Alternative was "chicken" option.

IMG_20150421_174054562_HDR.jpg

The second example is the "sandwich" midnight snack service. Although this is taken from the "snack tray" in the galley these were also served to each seat.

IMG_20150421_233512183_HDR.jpg

The third example is the "egg" breakfast option (alternative was noodle).

IMG_20150422_031729130.jpg

So far as I could tell this food was no different than any other TPAC flight I'd taken over the last decade.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Go to more reply options then below the text box there should be buttons for uploading/adding the pics to the text box.
&

No. Just select "More Reply Options", click on the "Choose Files" button at the bottom, open the file (photo) from its location in your computer and then click "Add To Post" to the extreme right of the file name. No real need to Use PhotoBucket or other image hosting services if you don't want to.
Thanks AmtrakBlue & niemi24s! Even though I didn't mention it previously your guidance cleared up the issue for me.

I would not expect it to be any different since it is not 1st of June yet ;)
After I posted that I realized that I could have worded it better, but by then I was boarding yet another flight and ran out of time to fix it. What I was trying to express was how amazingly consistent coach food has been over the last decade plus. We're talking about an era that has seen huge changes in so many areas of airline travel but in the realm of coach food it's remained remarkably consistent. Different airlines make more or less fuss over this or that minor aspect but in general the food in coach hasn't changed appreciably in fifteen or twenty years now. As much as I may decry the state of AmChow the honest truth is that coach class airline food is far worse than anything I've ever seen on Amtrak. Even on the highly decorated Asian airlines the coach food is generally pretty bad.
 
I know. But legitimately Coach Food on airlines stands against no food in Amtrak Coach, since there is no Amtrak Coach ticket that comes with any food included at all. For apples to apples comparison, well sort of, the box meals that you can purchase in domestic Coach needs to be compared with the fare that you can buy in Amcafe. I would actually be very happy to see pre-packed meals like even the airline Coach meals becoming available through Amcafe for purchase, instead of the greasy fattening mess that is available in the Amcafes.

Suffice it to say that with those caveats I do agree with what you were trying to say.
 
Slight correction jis:The Auto Train includes meals for Coach Passengers in the fare! ( of course the current nickel and dime cuts resulted in Coach and Sleeping Car passengers having the same menu on the Auto Train, maybe the airlines could try this to " save" money on food and beverage service?)
 
The Auto Train is a completely different thing, and we can compare it with flights that carry your Auto in the baggage hold. :) Kidding aside, I think the current food provided in the Auto Train is better than the run of the mill food in international Y by a bit, and is inferior to what one can get in international J or F. OTOH, what one can typically get in long enough domestic F is probably just at par with the Auto Train food. Of course domestic Y gets nada included in ticket and is equivalent to Amtrak regular Coach in that sense, and by virtue of getting food included in the base fare Auto Train Coach is better than domestic Y in air as far as food goes.

If you see the food that is served in J or F in international flights, it will never be the case that such service will be provided in Y, and while there has been some degradation of food service in J and F (e.g. no more caviar with the Champagne when you board :) Seriously, that is what you got in F back in the days on US airlines. You still get the Champagne both in F and J AFAIK), it is unlikely to ever reach the level of Y food while retaining the roughly 5 to 10 times the fare compared to lower Y fares.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
After I posted that I realized that I could have worded it better, but by then I was boarding yet another flight and ran out of time to fix it. What I was trying to express was how amazingly consistent coach food has been over the last decade plus. We're talking about an era that has seen huge changes in so many areas of airline travel but in the realm of coach food it's remained remarkably consistent. Different airlines make more or less fuss over this or that minor aspect but in general the food in coach hasn't changed appreciably in fifteen or twenty years now. As much as I may decry the state of AmChow the honest truth is that coach class airline food is far worse than anything I've ever seen on Amtrak. Even on the highly decorated Asian airlines the coach food is generally pretty bad.
To second DA's post regarding the food, that looks REMARKABLY consistent to what we saw TATL last week, with the exception of the "Continental" (heh heh) breakfast we had shortly before arrival on the way over. On both the food quality and the dining experience (even with an empty middle both ways) in terms of table space, AMTK is ahead of UA at the present time (Though I must admit the hot pretzel bun sandwich on the way back TATL was right there with AmChow).
 
After several frustrating trips through IAH I've started intentionally avoiding it for use with international flights. I currently have DEN-NRT, KIX-SFO, IAD-MUC, and NRT-SFO in the UA queue. Normally I just get something at the airport and take it with me but maybe I'll keep an eye out to see what if anything changes on board.
Flight out from IAH left almost an hour late, due to a cessation of fueling backlog from severe thunderstorms in the early evening (it actually started hailing about 30 seconds after we got under the covered carpark). Can't really blame them for that.

OTOH, coming back we were subjected to a 1 hour tarmac wait for our gate (The occupying aircraft had a MX, and apparently they have very few 787-900 capable gates there), and then when we got into the Customs hall after baggage claim, the regular wait was over FOUR HOURS (as in people were telling us they'd been there that long). Fortunately the global entry exit was only 8 people deep...
 
Yeah, the Global Entry line in Customs Hall is an absolute lifesaver in Newark too. When I came back from India a few weeks back I had a 2 hour connection and the regular exit queue from the Customs Hall in Terminal C in Newark was winding around the baggage carousals in every which way. I managed to cross over to the Global Entry queue, and lo and behold! I was the only one in it when I managed to get there, so I was out in a flash.

This apparently happens every morning what with 3 777s (Tel Aviv, Delhi and Mumbai) together with a handful of flights from various points in the Caribbean showing within an hour and a half. And the flights from the Caribbean seem to bring mountains of luggage bugger than those on the 777 flights to boot!
 
The food on United isn't too bad! Please give my very dysfunctional at times airline a break! :)
 
Here is some more concrete info about what United is planning in the way of food upgrade....

http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2015-04-28/united-airlines-trotter-project-collaborate-to-improve-in-flight-meals?fb=social
Thanks for sharing jis, perhaps Amtrak should do this also, er come to think of it they did, and Rep. Mica went ballistic and started the $25 Amburgergate hearings and we ended up with the nickel and dime cuts on the LD Trains and the bland,generic, national menu once again! ( Simplified Meal Service by another name,!)

The French have it right, " the more things change the more they remain the same!"
 
When we got into the Customs hall after baggage claim, the regular wait was over FOUR HOURS (as in people were telling us they'd been there that long). Fortunately the global entry exit was only 8 people deep...
Entering though Houston makes the monetization of border security surprisingly plain and obvious for anyone to see. IAH customs and immigration seems to have become little more than a shakedown at this point. If you don't pay up before the shakedown you get punished with excessive delays.

Yeah, the Global Entry line in Customs Hall is an absolute lifesaver in Newark too.
I used to complain about other countries being slow but during my travels I've noticed other countries are revamping airports in order to reduce delays and streamline the border entry process while the US seems to be busy making everything slower and more tedious. Houston has a dozen or more border booths but only bothers to staff one or two of them in my experience. We're talking about a major hub with A380's arriving in the middle of the day and yet they'd struggle to efficiently process a regional jet at this point.

After the computerized part that perpetually confuses distracted families (and duplicates the form you already filled out on on the plane) you're dumped into the punishment line that can stretch into thousands of passengers waiting for one or two chitchatting employees to process them. Should you be unfortunate enough to connect to another flight you'll be routed into yet another slow as molasses TSA recheck line. You either paid up ahead of time or you'll wait for another hour or more while the TSA watches and shouts instructions as you slowly meander through their detention center.

the article in previous link said:
The surprise in the collaboration is that The Trotter Project will not only design meals for Uniteds p.s. Premium transcontinental service, but also for economy class via the Choice Menu Bistro on Board program of purchasable meals. Prices and exact menu items havent been released yet, but United promises that passengers will get a taste of the new meals in the coming months. We'll keep you posted.
So it's basically an undisclosed upgrade of unknown cost to the domestic buy onboard service? Sounds rather exciting. I can see why there is so much interest in this. </s>
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top