Amtrak dining and cafe service

[crescent-zephyr]

I was unaware of that service, but it appears to be a select one available only on a few trains that qualify as "Higher" speed rail. It's slower than the Acela by a bit.

They haven't even electrified that entire route yet.

You’ll have to take that up with Great Western, they advertise it as “high speed dining carriage” - pretty sure they do 125.

 

[jis]

I was unaware of that service, but it appears to be a select one available only on a few trains that qualify as "Higher" speed rail. It's slower than the Acela by a bit.

They haven't even electrified that entire route yet.

Having actually traveled that route many times I would not characterize it as an HSR except in the fevered fantasies of Americans maybe. But then Americans seem to think 125mph is high speed rail. What can I say?

As it turns out almost everything that runs from Paddington to Reading runs for at least some distance at 125mph. Past Reading towards Cornwall it is a somewhat different story.

 

[Cal]

Thanks for the reply's. I forgot to ask if there was coffee in the sleeper cars on the Chief. Also how far back from the engine are the sleepers on the Chief?

My cardinal and SWC trip both had the coffee station running

 

[crescent-zephyr]

But then Americans seem to think 125mph is high speed rail. What can I say?

The Great Western advertises it as “high-speed” so it’s not just Americans.

 

[Nick Farr]

The Great Western advertises it as “high-speed” so it’s not just Americans.

It also seems like a luxury amenity available on one route on a very select number of trains. Seems more like a tourist thing than anything else.

That being said, it's probably still the fastest full kitchen on rails.

The point here remains: Full kitchens don't appear to be a thing anywhere in the world on HSR, classified as a rail line built from the ballast up to serve trains that cruise at over 250km/hr.

 

[finleyd]

Any updates on the Silvers getting traditional dining? Traveling to Orlando from Philadelphia in December

 

[jis]

Any updates on the Silvers getting traditional dining? Traveling to Orlando from Philadelphia in December

No updates so far.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It also seems like a luxury amenity available on one route on a very select number of trains. Seems more like a tourist thing than anything else.

That being said, it's probably still the fastest full kitchen on rails.

The point here remains: Full kitchens don't appear to be a thing anywhere in the world on HSR, classified as a rail line built from the ballast up to serve trains that cruise at over 250km/hr.

If we are talking about that classification of HSR then I’m not sure why you brought it up in connection with Acela.

 

[Zcahn01]

I was on the Silver Star two weeks ago and when chatting with the SCA’s in the dining car (commiserating about flex dining no less) they heard that traditional dining would be coming back mid-October.

Only rumors so who knows if it’s going to actually happen then. The sleepers and coaches were packed on the Silvers going both directions, so a busy service does seem like a good place to restart traditional dining on the east coast.

 

[lordsigma]

I seen posts on here before saying how the AT seems to always get the best of the best and dining car services were not changed because of Covid, but that is not the case.

What never changed on the auto train is the meal options available in both the diner and coach cafe car - they never cut menu items or went to inferior food preparation. They did drop communal dining as you experienced (which it sounds like it has been dropped elsewhere including out west once again.) It’s just harder to get a reservation on the auto train because it’s a much larger amount of sleeper passengers that have to be served and I think they are just doing one in-diner seating. I managed to get a seating going one direction on the auto train back in April but they didn’t offer it coming home (I believe they were short staffed.) Your best chance to get it is to get there really early (before they actually start accepting vehicles) and check in at the counter. It is possible to check yourself in before checking in your vehicle and not a lot of people realize that so typically if you do that you get pretty much full choice of meal times. I’ve also heard reports (though can’t confirm this for sure) that sometimes on busy runs they are only offering the in diner seating to bedroom passengers.

 

[cocojacoby]

Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.

P.S. Amtrak just announced $29 Auto Train fares:

One Traveler:​	Fare:​
Coach​	$29​ ​
Roomette​	$129​ ​
Bedroom​	$329​ ​
​

Two Travelers:​	Fares:​
Roomette​	$189​ ​
Bedroom​	$389​

 

[Dustyroad]

My cardinal and SWC trip both had the coffee station running

Thank you Cal. We are not going until the end of Sept. I hope that is still the case.

 

[jis]

Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.

It all depends on how much money one wishes to spend, in support of how much revenue, and what alternative arrangements may be possible to provide the same level of service. Given the funds, one could set up dining support base in Beaumont TX too

When you were required to reduce dining support costs to match revenues from dining service, it was natural that, as Mica intended, dining services would be cut back drastically.

On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.

 

[OBS]

It all depends on how much money one wishes to spend, in support of how much revenue, and what alternative arrangements may be possible to provide the same level of service. Given the funds, one could set up dining support base in Beaumont TX too

When you were required to reduce dining support costs to match revenues from dining service, it was natural that, as Mica intended, dining services would be cut back drastically.

On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.

Actually, there are no facilities in Lorton itself. A daily truck is dispatched from the Wash DC Commissary to Lorton, to restock the lounge(s) and Diner(s) for each daily departure, and is designed for a round trip of supplies. Minimal assistance is available in Sanford, mostly Paper products and some frozen food items and other non perishables...

 

[jis]

Actually, there are no facilities in Lorton itself. A daily truck is dispatched from the Wash DC Commissary to Lorton, to restock the lounge(s) and Diner(s) for each daily departure, and is designed for a round trip of supplies. Minimal assistance is available in Sanford, mostly Paper products and some frozen food items and other non perishables...

I suppose that is what keeps costs contained even further for the Auto Train operations.

Are there no refrigerated storage facilities in Sanford at all, i.e. the survival of the food in edible form depends on the refrigeration facility working in the Diners in the consists?

About Albany I was told that they need a refrigerated storage in order to be able to offload the food from consists that go in for overnight servicing. Ironically of course consists do not get powered down in Niagara Falls, since there would be no point to do so.

 

[OBS]

I suppose that is what keeps costs contained even further for the Auto Train operations.

Are there no refrigerated storage facilities in Sanford at all, i.e. the survival of the food in edible form depends on the refrigeration facility working in the Diners in the consists?

About Albany I was told that they need a refrigerated storage in order to be able to offload the food from consists that go in for overnight servicing. Ironically of course consists do not get powered down in Niagara Falls, since there would be no point to do so.

I don't know for sure as we never had access to the storage (Mini-com) area. I do know on occasional trips where refrigeration failed, and we had a major food loss Southbound, A truck would be dispatched from the Miami Commissary with needed supplies

 

[Triley]

It's all pre-made and some kind of rapid oven tech. I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.

The irony is that on the Acela, they could just take meal preferences prior to travel and serve these meals essentially fresh from the station, without a need for reheating anything other than the bread.

How would that work, since the meals are brought in from only three airports (how would they stay hot)? Or for people boarding downline at stops with no catering service (BWI, BAL, WIL, PHL, TRE, MET, NWK, NHV, NLC, PVD, RTE)? There's also a lot of people who book/upgrade last minute on that train.

 

[nferr]

It's all pre-made and some kind of rapid oven tech. I'm not aware of any HSR service in the world that has a traditional kitchen on board.

The irony is that on the Acela, they could just take meal preferences prior to travel and serve these meals essentially fresh from the station, without a need for reheating anything other than the bread.

Not everyone wants to eat the minute they get on the train. Also in the NEC people are constantly getting on and off. It's glorified commuter rail for somewhat longer distances.

 

[Nick Farr]

Funny thing about the AutoTrain dining thing, many comments along the way mention that diners can't be serviced properly at certain places (i.e., Boston, Albany) because of lack of facilities and suppliers. However, Amtrak doesn't seem to have any problems providing "traditional" food at Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL.

To highlight what people have said since in this thread: The AT is different. It only has terminus stops, so they know with a much higher degree of certainty who's going to be on board and what they want to eat, enough to staff the trains. It's more of a captive/predictable/niche market where they expect a higher degree of service. The food has always been a part of the experience on that train. They will lose customers and really stand nothing to gain from switching up the dining on that route. That train has a very select market with very select preferences.

And yes, dining "has always been" a part of the experience for LD train travelers--but a lot of the LD train passengers will continue to ride the rails even if the food service is not up to par.

 

[Nick Farr]

How would that work, since the meals are brought in from only three airports (how would they stay hot)? Or for people boarding downline at stops with no catering service (BWI, BAL, WIL, PHL, TRE, MET, NWK, NHV, NLC, PVD, RTE)?

This is my driving point: Amtrak should partner with local vendors who can operate trackside or near trackside. This is not as tremendously complicated as it's made out to be. Those who are leaving NYP could place an order and have their dinner in a warming box loaded at NWK.

Even with a full kitchen, the Amtrak menus are really limited when they don't have to be.

 

[Cal]

On Auto Train taken all by itself F&B has been close to break even as has been the train as a whole apparently. So there has been much less pressure in taking apart the support bases in Lorton and Sanford.

I thought the AT actually made money, wasn't just 'close to breaking even'

 

[Triley]

This is my driving point: Amtrak should partner with local vendors who can operate trackside or near trackside. This is not as tremendously complicated as it's made out to be. Those who are leaving NYP could place an order and have their dinner in a warming box loaded at NWK.

Even with a full kitchen, the Amtrak menus are really limited when they don't have to be.

First, we need to talk logistics. Who would be responsible for loading that food? If it's not readily available on the platform, then there's a chance they the train will either leave an attendant behind, leave the food behind, or incur a delay waiting on the food to be brought to the train. How would dishes be handled? Would there be no more china, and everything would need on plastic plates/bowls?

Then there's the cost aspect. Efficiency is the name of the game when it comes to cost and operations. This idea would add SO much overhead that would ultimately be passed down to the First Class ticket buyers, and may very well make people decide on a lower class of service, or to just fly First Class.

I rarely ever heard complaints about the menu offerings on that train. Every 3 weeks the menus would rotate through 1 of 3 menus, and then the menus would completely change a few times a year. So regular riders always seemed happy...

 

[Nick Farr]

First, we need to talk logistics. Who would be responsible for loading that food?

The vendor. Who waits trackside and pushes the cart onto the train. OBS need not even get off the train. This is actually the least complicated logistical issue.

Most complicated: How do you plan a menu and ordering system so the right orders get to the right passengers on time? How do you plan for variances or exceptions in the order? How can you onboard "disassembled" trays that can be lightly reheated for last minute orders. It's a complicated very custom job for a catering company.

Dishes are easy: They go right back into the warming boxes they came in and the vendor washes them.

As far as overhead: A commissary operation with fixed bases won't be necessary under this plan. The overhead savings of outsourcing the operation to several other bidders who can base themselves in much lower rent areas with much more flexible labor means there's a great possibility the costs go down quite a bit while adding more flexibility and opportunities for emerging food service vendors.

This is just an idea I have that seems to tick the boxes of cost savings and reliability. I don't think Amtrak management has the imagination to pull it off.

 

[Nick Farr]

I thought the AT actually made money, wasn't just 'close to breaking even'

The AT basically breaks even. Sometimes it is profitable, sometimes it runs at a loss.

The thing that separates it from every other LD route is that was the first brand new product/route in Intercity rail in the US after the advent of Jet Air travel. It was designed to serve a dedicated market segment between two destinations. It's much more of a land cruise than transportation.

All other existing LD routes essentially hail from pre-war passenger railroads with very little, if any, refreshing or consideration for contemporary transit practices.

 

[joelkfla]

Dishes are easy: They go right back into the warming boxes they came in and the vendor washes them.

Are you saying dirty dishes would remain fermenting on the train until the next time that trainset passed through the same station? That sounds pretty unsanitary, and the insides of those warming boxes would get mighty skanky.