Amtrak FY22 Grant Request

[Ferroequinologist]

That's fair

I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?

 

[me_little_me]

Well if you convert the Superliner roomettes to single occupancy you reduce overall capacity to 30, same as Viewliners, which eliminates their advantage over single-level equipment.

Wrong. Bad comparison. You need to compare converting Superliner roomettes to single occupancy to converting Viewliner roomettes to single occupancy.

Superliner - 14 roomettes - lose potentially as much as 14 capacity.
Viewliner II - 11 roomettes - lose potentially as much as 11 capacity.

You lose 3 more people max than the VLII. And you still carry a lot more because of the 5 BR, 1 Family Room, 1 Handicapped room vs 2 BR, 1 Handicapped room.

 

[Mailliw]

Why would you convert Viewliner roomettes into single occupancy? They have even more space than in Superliners.

 

[John Bredin]

Progressive rail advocacy is about high speed, not overnight sleepers.

And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains.

There's room in progressive rail advocacy for both HSR and overnight trains. I would love to see a basic framework or core of HSR across the country, not just on the East and West Coasts. I also think a route like the Empire Builder is best run with overnight trains with sleepers, not HSR, a series of day corridors end-to-end, or buses.

 

[MARC Rider]

And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains.

Yes, but the other countries already have a robust system of corridor trains, so they can consider restoring the overnight sleeper service, which, even with it's restoration, is not the major market for passenger rail in their countries.

We need to set priorities with limited funds to restore passenger rail as a viable transportation mode outside of the Northeast. That means 1), corridor service first, as this is really where passenger rail is most viable, 2) maintaining the existing long-distance network, but doing whatever it takes to improves on-time performance and reliability, and accept that most of its constituency for public funding is from rural people who travel relatively short distances along the route, 3) add frequencies along existing popular long-distance corridors, then, finally, 4) funding to expand the long-distance system. Ideally, the new corridors should be designed so that their endpoints link together, thus new long-distance services can share their considerable overhead costs with the existing corridor services, plus the long distance trains will have greater connectivity with destinations no on a train's particular route.

The main public purpose for subsidizing passenger rail is to provide an alternative to driving, and perhaps flying for distances of 200 miles or less. Secondary purposes are to provide non-driving mobility to at least some rural areas and basic transcontinental mobility for people who cannot fly or drive for medical reasons. Accommodating enthusiasts like us who like to ride trains coast-to-coast is probably the lowest priority, though, of course, it is a legitimate one.

 

[Cal]

I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?

Honestly, I am being biased. I personally love the look and history of the superliner, which is why I would be fine with an overhaul and interior upgrade.

 

[neroden]

A Slumbercoach type design could be an alternative however the real solution is a larger subsidy to allow for accommodations suitable to 21st century people in a developed country. Anyway the current Administration may not be replaced by another sympathetic to Amtrak. I see this as a once in a life time opportunity to get a new trans-con fleet. Keep the Superliners and doom long haul trains because these cars just won't last forever. Progressive rail advocacy is about high speed, not overnight sleepers.

To the extent that current progressive rail advocacy is about overnight sleepers, everyone is looking at Austria (OBB)'s Nightjet service.

 

[me_little_me]

Why would you convert Viewliner roomettes into single occupancy? They have even more space than in Superliners.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that it's not a fair comparison. If Amtrak converted all the Superliner roomettes to deluxe suites, then the Viewliner 2s look even better when it comes to numbers of passengers per car. It's simply an apples to oranges comparison by changing one and not the other then saying "Look! They both hold the same number of people".

 

[Ferroequinologist]

To the extent that current progressive rail advocacy is about overnight sleepers, everyone is looking at Austria (OBB)'s Nightjet service.

That may be but when I referred to progressive rail advocacy I was not speaking of railfan advocacy but advocacy by the progressive wing of the Democrat party now holding sway in Washington. High speed rail is seen as an energy efficient alternative. I don't think AOC is thinking of trains lumbering across the country for three days. Right now is the time to get in an order of Superliner replacements. It will be a lot harder to kill long haul once that has been accomplished but if action is delayed it may be too late when Administrations change. My concern is that while the attitude toward passenger rail has radically changed from the perspective of the White House, Amtrak management may not have changed. I get the feeling that Anderson's hostility to overnight trains lingers in the Amtrak management suites.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Honestly, I am being biased. I personally love the look and history of the superliner, which is why I would be fine with an overhaul and interior upgrade.

So you'd like everyone to put up with the old equipment for sentimental reasons and lose the opportunity to get a whole new fleet? You could always ride the Superliners in Bolivia or wherever they eventually wind up. The "Chessie" ended up in Argentina where it ran until very recently. The Superliners may have an equally creative destiny.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains.

There's room in progressive rail advocacy for both HSR and overnight trains. I would love to see a basic framework or core of HSR across the country, not just on the East and West Coasts. I also think a route like the Empire Builder is best run with overnight trains with sleepers, not HSR, a series of day corridors end-to-end, or buses.

You are right and Amtrak should take advantage of the Biden administration's favorable view of passenger rail by ordering Superliner replacements while the will to do so is there. The US does not have a committed master rail master plan like European nations. Governments in Europe come and go but passenger rail largely remains a priority (the UK being somewhat an exception, especially under Thatcher). This is not so in the US. Once Republicans are back in power the focus is almost certain to dramatically shift.

 

[MARC Rider]

the progressive wing of the Democrat party now holding sway in Washington.

Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington."

"Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.

 

[MARC Rider]

So you'd like everyone to put up with the old equipment for sentimental reasons and lose the opportunity to get a whole new fleet? You could always ride the Superliners in Bolivia or wherever they eventually wind up. The "Chessie" ended up in Argentina where it ran until very recently. The Superliners may have an equally creative destiny.

The only real reason to put a high priority on replacing the Superliners is if their mechanical condition is so bad that reliability and safety are affected. If the cars are still in good mechanical condition, then an overhaul is probably OK if there isn't enough money available to replace them. And when it does get to the point that they actually *need* to be replaced, they will come up with money for it, because the current basic long-distance service has sufficient bipartisan support in Congress.

 

[jis]

Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington."

"Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.

Yeah, I do not consider the portion of the Democratic Party holding sway these days, exactly the "progressive wing" although they have picked up a few of the positions espoused by the "progressing wing" in their current drift from their "neoliberal instincts". Clinton is dead and gone for sure.

All indications at Amtrak are that the "Corridor Wing" holds sway in the Board and Executive Suite. I don't think Superliner replacement will be addressed before 2025. A refurbishment is already funded and starting up. Full replacement is not due until 2030. It is all documented in the Asset Plan that is informing the current Authorization Bill work.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington."

"Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.

No he wasn't part of the progressive wing but he is now.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

The only real reason to put a high priority on replacing the Superliners is if their mechanical condition is so bad that reliability and safety are affected. If the cars are still in good mechanical condition, then an overhaul is probably OK if there isn't enough money available to replace them. And when it does get to the point that they actually *need* to be replaced, they will come up with money for it, because the current basic long-distance service has sufficient bipartisan support in Congress.

Don't count on the money being there in a few years. The money is there NOW. The government is spending TRILLIONS. Have you any idea just how much PPP money alone has been doled out? The actual figures have been released by the government. Google it. A restaurant around the corner from me got nearly a million $ and that is just one of countless businesses that have had their hands out. Yes I know that Amtrak is not taking PPP money but my point is that the government is spending massively now and that can't go on forever unless the US wants to end up like Argentina. There is some bipartisan support for Amtrak and a lot of opposition too. Amtrak has always struggled to make ends meet. What on earth makes you think there will be support for new Superliners a few years from now? Once things stabilize and Covid spending is behind us a less Democrat Congress will take a much closer look at the budget.

 

[Bob Dylan]

No he wasn't part of the progressive wing but he is now.

Hate to disagree, but Amtrak Joe is an "Establishment Centerist", it's in his DNA.

 

[Mailliw]

Don't count on the money being there in a few years. The money is there NOW. The government is spending TRILLIONS. Have you any idea just how much PPP money alone has been doled out? The actual figures have been released by the government. Google it. A restaurant around the corner from me got nearly a million $ and that is just one of countless businesses that have had their hands out. Yes I know that Amtrak is not taking PPP money but my point is that the government is spending massively now and that can't go on forever unless the US wants to end up like Argentina. There is some bipartisan support for Amtrak and a lot of opposition too. Amtrak has for always struggled to make ends meet. What on earth makes you think there will be support for new Superliners a few years from now?. Once things stabilize and Covid spending is behind us a less Democrat Congress will take a much closer look at the budget.

Yep, Amtrak needs to strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Hate to disagree, but Amtrak Joe is an "Establishment Centerist", it's in his DNA.

As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".

 

[daybeers]

As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".

Which is incorrect. Joe Biden is a centrist Democrat. If you believe he is left of that, you’re analyzing too many biased news sources. Not that it matters in this thread or forum.

 

[jis]

I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?

I am with you on this. There is too much of let us make it like it was in the 1950s stuff or for the younger generation, let us make it like it was in 1980s, as the case may be. I suspect that perennial lack of funding has made people fall back to this borderline defeatist romanticism.

What we need to do is visualize what it needs to be like in the 202s and beyond and work towards that instead of coming up with more and more complex schemes to make it like back then.

 

[Ryan]

As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".

Perhaps you can explain using full sentences why you think that's the case, rather than reply in terse quips that demonstrate little to no understanding of what you're talking about.

Think for yourself for a minute and explain some of the policy provisions embraced by the President that put him in the progressive wing of a party who's name you can't even correctly use.

 

[jiml]

I don't think Superliner replacement will be addressed before 2025. A refurbishment is already funded and starting up. Full replacement is not due until 2030.

If the refurb is done properly there is no reason they won't last until 2030. Are there things that would be done differently in a new car design? Certainly, but the Superliners are solid vehicles with a few flaws. I don't see them heading to "Bolivia" or anywhere else in the next 9 years, although if they did I'm sure VIA would want first crack at them given their expertise in maintaining older rolling stock.

 

[jis]

If the refurb is done properly there is no reason they won't last until 2030. Are there things that would be done differently in a new car design? Certainly, but the Superliners are solid vehicles with a few flaws. I don't see them heading to "Bolivia" or anywhere else in the next 9 years, although if they did I'm sure VIA would want first crack at them given their expertise in maintaining older rolling stock.

VIA did consider and pass on Superliners in the first round. Maybe they changed their mind since then.

Then again VIA probably won;t have enough of an LD service left to worry about such things by 2030.

 

[jiml]

VIA did consider and pass on Superliners in the first round. Maybe they changed their mind since then.

Then again VIA probably won;t have enough of an LD service left to worry about such things by 2030.

Probably not to both your points unfortunately. The test of them in the west was recently revisited in another thread, but the pressure at the time was to "buy Canadian" - and of course they did neither. With recent orders focused on the corridor though, IF they wanted to continue LD used Superliners would be an easy and less expensive solution for the Canadian, freeing up more HEP stock for the Ocean and possibly resumed Gaspe service. Increased frequency on all of the above would also be possible - however unlikely.

Back to the original point though, when Amtrak moves on from Superliners I'd expect interest in North America long before they're shipped to another continent, as was suggested.