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I used the calculator found at the new website to evaluate a 2 zone roomette reservation costing $2000, which was about the lowest I could find over a 15 day period in January from DEN to ORL (a shortest path route I do every other January).

The result for a non-status member

Price = 2000

Points credited = 4000 (note this is the same as the old regime)

Points required for future travel = 69,000

Points required for future travel under the old regime = 20000
Maybe I just got lucky, but for 1/11/2016, I got a $910 fare for a one-way roomette trip DEN-ORL. This will cost 31,395 points under AGR 2.0 according to the calculator. Did you price a round-trip by any chance? If so, the points required today would be 40,000, not 20,000.
 
They say make it short and sweet. My spiel must have been two long to wade through.

PaulM said: "Your points are going away," but this depends a lot on the route, bucket, compartment vs. bedroom, etc. One conclusion I'm adding to my list is that the severest impacts are likely to be on people doing former 2-zone compartment trips -- that really was the "sweet spot" in the zone system.
If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel.

But I do agree with your sweet spot. My favorite was Quincy to San Diego via Chicago and Portland, a two zoner.

I was also wondering about sleeper redemptions under the new system. It use to be (still is?) that when booking a sleeper you got low-bucket fare for the fare portion. Is this going away also when booking sleepers using AGR?
Again, if my theory is correct, there is no change to the reservation system. You will now be able to apply AGR dollar credits to the fare calculated as always.
 
Suggestion to AGR and Amtrak:

Hire Paul M. as a Contracted Consultant to implement the plan he mentions in his excellent post explaining a simpler, fairer, New AGR3.0 that benefits both Amtrak and we, the loyal customers!Win!/Win!

And to the posters who have problems with those of us who make "point runs" to acquire points to use for LD trips:

Those of us that live where there is only one train a day,( or less or none!) ie in flyover country, have to use LD Trains to acquire points ( along with using our AGR Chase MC or other Cards). The 100 Point Minimum was nice, but it wasn't really "gaming the system", it was the only game in town!

Plus there was a 4 segment limit a day on point runs ( good for those who live on Corridors) and during double and triple bonus days, the limit was two! We paid for the listed Amtrak Fare, minus any discounts offered, so how was this gaming the system?

My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!

Way to stick it to us guys, maybe you can send us a jar of Vasoline as a Bonus?!!! Why not just do away with all Discounts, publish your Fares and be done with it! EZ-PZ!!!!

Now we await the New AGR Master Card ( most probably BOA)Rollout! Wonder what hidden devaluations and " Gotchas!" will be in this surprise package?

Changing your Motto to "Less is More and More for Less!!" may look good in a Biz School power point presentation, but as a Loyalty Model it sucks! No way to treat your good customers guys! YMMV

Marketing Spin and Speak may sound good @ 60 Mass and to the Mica Managers on the Hill, but it doesn't fool us out here in the real world! Rewards is not a synonym for Penalties!

Pleeeeze! You got some splainin' to do!

Addition": Re :Cheys post; Yep, cue the Travelin' Wilburys singing "End of the Line". Perfect!!!
 
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Sad to say, I think this is it for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqhdRs4jyA (OK, yeah, a little dramatic, but I am sad)

It was never convenient, driving to FTW or ABQ and paying for safe parking, or riding the bus and paying bus fare (I always needed a station I could check luggage and those are the closest, not less than 300 miles either way).

I have enough points for 1 one-way, two-zone trip before January. I'm thinking of going to LAX but not sure if I want to take the SWC (I've never seen the Raton Pass) or the SL (and finally experience the transition from Eagle to SL).
 
Ahoy Disgruntled Rewards "Club" Members,

Without repeating my post #309 on page 16 of this topic, I am most happy to see all of the dialogue.

Wondering, does anyone "out there" know - really know - whether the folks at Amtrak Guest Rewards read these

posts? If they do, one would think there should be a re-evaluation of a program going wrong.

This is not about getting something for nothing, as one alluded to in perhaps different words - it is about earning

an opportunity by paying for the points. That is after all what we all do - we pay for the points through our ticket

purchases. If one thinks otherwise, perhaps one should come up for air and view the sunlight. "There is no free lunch,"

as a professor of mine used to put it while explaining the Law's of Thermodynamics and I for one am not looking for

something for nothing. As many here have attested to, we have tithed quite well and often to Amtrak through taxes

and of course travel.

Anyway . . . boiler plate responses to letters and Emails are pretty much "it" it these times, whether it be Amtrak,

IHG or Amazon.com.

My plans are to burn through my points remaining (over 150k at this juncture) by making reservations well into

2016. Guest Rewards told me by phone that redemptions made before the "drop dead" date will be honored at

the current rates. After that, cannot say.

Enjoy the weekend!
 
I used the calculator found at the new website to evaluate a 2 zone roomette reservation costing $2000, which was about the lowest I could find over a 15 day period in January from DEN to ORL (a shortest path route I do every other January).

The result for a non-status member

Price = 2000

Points credited = 4000 (note this is the same as the old regime)

Points required for future travel = 69,000

Points required for future travel under the old regime = 20000
Maybe I just got lucky, but for 1/11/2016, I got a $910 fare for a one-way roomette trip DEN-ORL. This will cost 31,395 points under AGR 2.0 according to the calculator. Did you price a round-trip by any chance? If so, the points required today would be 40,000, not 20,000.
You are correct. Either I made a big mistake or the price dropped drastically in one day. I also multiplied the low bucket rail fair by two for two people; but under the new scheme that may not be appropriate.
 
I was also wondering about sleeper redemptions under the new system. It use to be (still is?) that when booking a sleeper you got low-bucket fare for the fare portion. Is this going away also when booking sleepers using AGR?
I speculated as to the answer in am earlier post. But it does bring up another question. If you book a room for two in the usual way, can the second person apply their points, oops credit, to the second rail fare? I suspect that would require a change in the reservation system since it doesn't currently bring up exchange vouchers from more than one person. So I suspect the answer is no.
 
My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the discounted fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
 
My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the discounted fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
Anthony says over on FlyerTalk:

"'Adult' and 'Child' pricing will apply to redemption travel, but not other discount types such as AAA, Senior, etc."
 
I see a few gems in the sludge given that one would expect Amtrak to finally implement a penalty for changing/cancelling points trips and expect that costs in points would have gone up one way or the other.

  1. For those overnight trips across a boundary, I can use a reasonable number of points e.g. Prince, WV to Chicago for as little as 13K points now vs 20K before
  2. My age gets me senior discount so paying in points gets me some point discount.
  3. I don't have to buy points to meet a specific criteria (e.g. needing 40K points to go 2 zones in a BR vs using the points I have with added cash either by using the upcoming point+cash program or paying for part of the way in cash.
  4. I can break up a trip. In the past, you "paid" to the zone boundary in points so making a 2 day stopover halfway there was "expensive", doubling the cost in points. Now I can stop along the way and continue my journey using not many more points than if I didn't stop.
Not as good overall as the old deal but at least it mitigates the cost.
 
My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the discounted fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
Paul: Maybe I misunderstood Anthony's post on Flyer Talk about this?

He said that the only Fares that would be used in calculating Redemption Awards would be Adult and 50% off Children Fares.

I'm just a poor retired country boy, so all this high falutin'math and computing goes way beyond the one room school house Math I was taught back in Ancient Times!

Hopefully these kind of questions will be fully explained as they arise !( and there will be plenty of them from now till after roll out)

I still think hiring you as a consultant would be a great idea! You could ride your bike to work @ 60 Mass like Ryan does to the Navy Yard! LOL
 
Excellent post on Flyer Talk/AGR Forum by a Pa. Resident: His slogan is better than mine:( " Less is More for More!")

AGR2016: "Easier for Us/Costlier for You/Unless You Live Where We Do!"

Perfect!!
 
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My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the discounted fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
Paul: Maybe I misunderstood Anthony's post on Flyer Talk about this?

He said that the only Fares that would be used in calculating Redemption Awards would be Adult and 50% off Children Fares.
There is another interpretation that doesn't make sense, but at least doesn't destroy my theory that the reservation system need not change. That is when what used to be points get posted after Amtrak travel, the new AGR system does not use the discount to calculate the credit for later redemption awards.

I say this doesn't make sense because if the old reservation system is used when booking a redemption, it will calculate the price based on the discount and then apply the (un-dicounted) credit. So seniors would be getting an extra bonus.

On the other hand, your interpretation requires that the reservation system somehow either ask you before hand whether you will be applying AGR credits in order not to apply the discount, or when you later apply AGR credit during the payment phase, it recalculates the price minus the discount. Then there is the question of partial redemptions. Does it prorate the discount? Any scenario requires a Rube Goldberg recoding the reservation system.

Not only that, to make AGR redemptions on-line bookable and mix cash and redemptions, you would need to add a payment type. To the best of my knowledge, there are only two: credit card and eVouchers. Thus my conclusion that eVouchers should be used to hold AGR credit.
 
They say make it short and sweet. My spiel must have been two long to wade through. <snip>

If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel.
Paul, apologies, I did indeed grasp your very good point; just wanted to focus on the lower fare that I found. -- Bryan
 
More " The Devil's in the Details" Questions re the New and Improved AGR2.0:

What happens when on an AGR Award trip a connection is missed for whatever reason, say in CHI, ( common occurrence!)and AGR members have to be re-booked? For example #6 EMY-CHI/##30 CHI-WAS. You are rebooked on #48 to NYP, then a NECR to WAS.

#48 is consistently more Expensive than #30 for Sleepers( as is #50) and with the addition of the NECR ( in Biz Class?) Will the Member have to Pay with more Points since such connections will require mostly Higher Bucket Fares on such short notice?

And what happens if a member is Involuntarily downgraded to Coach on a SOLD OUT Train? Will you receive a Voucher as is current practice, or a rebate of Points into your AGR Account?

I'm from Missouri on this, Shoe Me!! W

Blurbs that have come out so far are Boilerplate, Marketing Weasel words that surely wasn't written by a human being ! Putting Lipstick on a pig doesn't change that it's still a pig!

"AGR2016: Easier for Us/Costlier for You/Unless You Live Where We Do!"
 
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What really worries me is that changes will be made to the AGR Mastercard that significantly decrease the points earned simply by using the card. We rarely earn points by paying for our Amtrak travel -- and when we do, the number of points we earn is miniscule. What's made it possible for us to travel on Amtrak is the AGR Mastercard. Simply by charging everything to the card, we've been able to take a major LD trip every other year, and sometimes twice a year. So far as I know, nothing has been announced concerning the "new" AGR Mastercard and the miles-earning terms to be offered, but I expect they will change... and not for the better.
 
On mobile; poorly formatted quote from PaulM: "If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel."

Unfortunately, there are a few reasons it doesn't appear that's going to be the case, and they all reduce the value of points further than your theory would predict. The MAX value points will be worth under the new system will be ~2.9c each, but Amtrak wouldn't have any interest in giving us voucher credit instead, because there are several ways they'll be giving us less per point than that.

The one where Amtrak is most forthcoming about the reduced value is Acela redemptions, where the point ratio is $1:40, for a value of 2.5c each.

The next one involves the minimum redemption cost of 800 points. Technically we don't know if the 800 point minimum is per booking or per leg, but the estimator makes it look like it's going to be per leg =/ That means that if I were to try to redeem points for the $12 Orlando to Tampa route I like, I would only get 1.5c per point in value.

Another is when you would normally be able to apply a discount, like the 10% AAA or the 15% Vet Advantage or Senior rate. On a $100 base fare, we'll have the option of using a discount to pay $85 or $90 cash or 3450 points - resulting in ~2.5c or 2.6c per point.

The last one is the fact that apparently Saver fares won't be eligible for redemptions - only Value or higher. For the $34 Saver fare from Orlando to Miami, you'll have to redeem enough points for the $43 Value fare - the estimator says that will be 1484 points, resulting in ~2.3c per point in value.

...clearly I'm a great big dork, but I used to get sooo much more value out of points than I'll get in the future, and I'm awfully bummed that in must cases it turns out that I'll get even less than the 2.9c the new program purports to offer.
 
Being one of us that likes to make the longest trip possible within the zone system (almost every 2-zone trip I've taken has been 4 nights on the train), I am mostly disappointed in the new program.

But this will open the possibility to new connections that we didn't have before, either because they were strictly prohibited or because trying to convince the AGR rep that they were permitted was too difficult.

Now I'll be able to go eastbound from Chicago on the LSL, spend a night in NYC and then go south to Tampa on the Star (if it gets a diner back) or the Meteor. Looks like it will be about 24K points, which isn't too unreasonable since it would have required 35K before.

And I never wanted to do a 1 zone trip before, because adding a second zone for 5K points was too good to pass up. Consequently, I traveled several times between DEN and CHI on the second half of Zephyr trips when there really isn't much to see but corn and wheat. Now I can just fly home from DEN, which is usually fairly reasonable.

I just hope that Chase allows us to continue to transfer points or at least gives us some warning before cutting it off. Even at 2.89 cents per point, AGR will probably still be a better deal than transferring to Southwest and definitely better than transferring to the evil United Airlines.
 
I think I can live with the changes...perhaps it might require a little longer lead time to find best prices or forgoing holiday periods.

Still I have a couple questions:

1.). Will the price used to calculate required points be based on fare AFTER any discounts like the senior discount?

2). Since redemption is based on price, any chance it will be possible to purchase rail pass?

3). Can I assume that the cost of a roomette or bedroom includes multiple passengers?
 
I think I can live with the changes...perhaps it might require a little longer lead time to find best prices or forgoing holiday periods.

Still I have a couple questions:

1.). Will the price used to calculate required points be based on fare AFTER any discounts like the senior discount?

2). Since redemption is based on price, any chance it will be possible to purchase rail pass?

3). Can I assume that the cost of a roomette or bedroom includes multiple passengers?
It's buried earlier, but to reiterate....

1) Only child fare results in a reduced point requirement. No senior point discount an application of other discounts, like AAA.

2) nothing mentioned about a rail pass. I suspect no. However, multiride tickets be available with points.

3) The cost of points will be proportional to the retail price. More passengers in sleepers will cost more points.
 
Passengers are not forced to pay more when rebooked due to a misconnect when paying with cash. There is no reason to believe that redemptions would be otherwise. I am 99.999% sure that a misconnect would be rebooked without an additional points cost.
While I expect you are correct, there is evidence to the contrary. If I rebook a cash reservation to take advantage of a lower price, I can get the full value of the change in price in the form of a voucher. On a points reservation, I only get 90% of the price reduction, even though points are essentially a voucher under the new system.
 
Passengers are not forced to pay more when rebooked due to a misconnect when paying with cash. There is no reason to believe that redemptions would be otherwise. I am 99.999% sure that a misconnect would be rebooked without an additional points cost.
While I expect you are correct, there is evidence to the contrary. If I rebook a cash reservation to take advantage of a lower price, I can get the full value of the change in price in the form of a voucher. On a points reservation, I only get 90% of the price reduction, even though points are essentially a voucher under the new system.
Oh don't worry, I'm sure the same changes coming for cash reservations and they just haven't told us yet. ;)
 
Well, that's it for me and my cross-country adventures. I knew it was too good to last forever.

My previous trip was WAS-SEA via the Cardinal, Southwest Chief, and Coast Starlight. Used to be 35,000 points. Departing July 22, 2016, it's 72,761 points (based on $2,109 rail fare).

Looks like I'll book 2 or 3 more adventures, zero out my points, cancel my AGR and Sapphire Preferred cards, and look elsewhere for my travel needs.

I can't say I'm surprised that the devaluation is that extreme, but I am certainly disappointed.
 
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