Amtrak partners with Google

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danasgoodstuff

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https://media.amtrak.com/2024/09/am...port-more-sustainable-transportation-choices/ what do the members here think of this. I hate supporting a near monopoly and I hope they've tested the heck out of it, but this could be useful for many people. And possibly drive new traffic to Amtrak. From Amtrak Media Center, "Amtrak information will appear in Google search results when a user indicates they are considering rail travel between two Amtrak destinations. As part of this integration, Google will also show train suggestions when travelers look for flights on Google Search or Google Flights, helping people consider more sustainable options when deciding how to get from A to B. More information is available on Google’s blog.1"
 
It lets people know there are other options than flying. Working with Google makes sense if you are trying to increase your customer base.

If someone objects to using Google, don't use it. This is targeting people who are already using Google; it does not force people who do not like using it to use it.

I may be missing apparent negatives. If there is something I am missing, I am willing to learn.
 
It lets people know there are other options than flying. Working with Google makes sense if you are trying to increase your customer base.

If someone objects to using Google, don't use it. This is targeting people who are already using Google; it does not force people who do not like using it to use it.

I may be missing apparent negatives. If there is something I am missing, I am willing to learn.
Any significant downside to this is not obvious to me. Amtrak IMHO should strike more such deals. Getting visibility on widely deployed platforms is a good thing for business.
 
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It lets people know there are other options than flying. Working with Google makes sense if you are trying to increase your customer base.

If someone objects to using Google, don't use it. This is targeting people who are already using Google; it does not force people who do not like using it to use it.

I may be missing apparent negatives. If there is something I am missing, I am willing to learn.
The negative is that it appears Google has an exclusive data source that nobody else has access to and OP kinda hinted at that. Websites like railforless.us have struggled to do this as Amtrak tries extremely hard to prevent bots from scraping rail itinerary and fare data. RailForLess relies on web browser simulation to "appear human" to get fare and trip data for multiple days. Now we have Google just waltzing in and having this data for (apparently) free.

This is obviously "good" for both Amtrak and Google but I hope this goes the way of GTFS (General Transit Feed Specification) which was a Google invention meant for public transit agencies interacting with Google Maps; it's a format and publication that transit agencies offer for anyone to use despite its close origins and continued association with Google Maps.
 
So, we all think this is a good thing then?
I think "better than not having it" is objectively true in this case. I use Google to search flights, and most of the time I know if Amtrak would make any sense before searching, but in those situations where I would not otherwise know this might help inform me. I do look at emissions estimates and sometimes make changes based on what it says. Like most members I think Amtrak should provide API access to more aggregators, but I'm not seeing how this specific change prevents that.
 
I think "better than not having it" is objectively true in this case. I use Google to search flights, and most of the time I know if Amtrak would make any sense before searching, but in those situations where I would not otherwise know this might help inform me. I do look at emissions estimates and sometimes make changes based on what it says. Like most members I think Amtrak should provide API access to more aggregators, but I'm not seeing how this specific change prevents that.
You are exactly right.

There are two or three separable issues being conflated in this discussion.

The technical issue of how data is transmitted to and fro between Amtrak and Google about train service is handled by using GTFS just like the integration with SNCF and DB and others in Europe.

As for the integration in how the results of a search are presented, that is internal to Google since afterall that UX is entirely Google's bailiwick.

And finally handling the link back to Amtrak to initiate a reservation, that may be something that Amtrak provides using a non-standard interface. So there would be an opportunity to standardize that if it is not done already as a bolt on to GTFS.

My inside mole does not know for sure how the third piece above is done at present, but we both agreed that there is an opportunity for an open standard usage there if it is not already using something concocted by the likes of OASIS.

I have spent 20 years of my professional career in architecting and developing open standards for inter module communication in enterprise systems, so this is near and dear to my heart. I was the primary representative of HP at Object Management Group, OASIS and DMTF and several ISO/IEC JTC-1 Subcommittee US Mirror Committees for a decade and a half, and edited the CORBA standard upto CORBA 3.0.

And finally there is the marketing side, which is ... well ... marketing, and I know very little about it.

As an example of such integration Indian Railways provides a standard feed using GTFS to anyone that wants to suck in such information into their system, and provides a standard interface to the reservation system using a SABRE-like interface. IR has its own UX provided through IRCTC, which interestingly provides an integrated view of trains + planes where appropriate even though it is primarily a railway reservation system. In addition now there are at least a dozen third party reservation UX providers that integrate seamlessly with IR and airlines and provide an integrated view (some even integrating interstate bus services), and a few of the third party interfaces are way better than IR's own interface, including in handling IR specific functions of managing reservations in WL (waiting list) and RAC (Reservation Against Cancellation) etc. So, if there is a will there is a way.
 
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Will railforless.us now be able to scrape Google far easier to get Amtrak data? Will the need for railforless.us likely go away after Google gets done what it wants? I use Google Flights for commercial flight planning purposes.
 
Will railforless.us now be able to scrape Google far easier to get Amtrak data? Will the need for railforless.us likely go away after Google gets done what it wants? I use Google Flights for commercial flight planning purposes.
railforless and everyone else should be able to access Amtrak data through GTFS API supported by Amtrak. If they are not supporting the entire suit of APIs we through Congress should require them to do so. That is the solution, not random scraping. Google is not end all and be all and they don't have any reservation interface that even vaguely comes close to some of the convenience that I find in the third party apps available in India. Why does the land of the free not take steps to enable same in its own domain?
 
https://media.amtrak.com/2024/09/am...port-more-sustainable-transportation-choices/ what do the members here think of this. I hate supporting a near monopoly and I hope they've tested the heck out of it, but this could be useful for many people. And possibly drive new traffic to Amtrak. From Amtrak Media Center, "Amtrak information will appear in Google search results when a user indicates they are considering rail travel between two Amtrak destinations. As part of this integration, Google will also show train suggestions when travelers look for flights on Google Search or Google Flights, helping people consider more sustainable options when deciding how to get from A to B. More information is available on Google’s blog.1"
Since there is spotty wifi at best while traveling by train, why should I be impressed?
 
This effort of Amtrak partnering with Google is quite amusing. We who work with RPA to produce the PDF timetables discovered a bug in the GTFS data - more than a year ago - where the schedules for multiple trains are incorrect. They leave on the wrong day. It is because Amtrak does not use the timezone local to the station, rather they use Eastern time.

So a 10PM departure for the Sunset Limited from Los Angeles is 1AM eastern time, the next day. Here are 2 screenshots, one from my phone showing the schedule search in Google and the other from Amtrak's website. The Sunset leaves at 10PM on Fridays, not Saturdays.

We have reported this problem to Amtrak multiple times with no reply - we just gave up. Literally billions in funding from the taxpayers and they can't even produce a correct digital schedule, nor do they care to do so.
 

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So, we all think this is a good thing then?
From the perspective of the younger generation and knowing people who are not railfans at all, who have never or rarely take trains, and who grew up with the internet, the fact is that many/most people do use Google in such a way that this new info source will at least expose a lot of people to the possibility of using Amtrak!

Although I am very overly detailed and methodical about (and enjoy!) planning and searching for various travel options, I've found that I'm way more in the weeds than most people I know, who wouldn't ever stumble upon the Amtrak option for travel themselves. Or who don't even know that Amtrak exists! I did a mock search on Google Flights for MSP to CHI and was pleasantly surprised to find that even the humble Borealis is shown under the "best departing options" with the note: To arrive closer to your destination. I love that, since as we all know, a nice benefit of train travel is not having to schlep oneself into a city from a airport.

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railforless and everyone else should be able to access Amtrak data through GTFS API supported by Amtrak. If they are not supporting the entire suit of APIs we through Congress should require them to do so. That is the solution, not random scraping. Google is not end all and be all and they don't have any reservation interface that even vaguely comes close to some of the convenience that I find in the third party apps available in India. Why does the land of the free not take steps to enable same in its own domain?
I don't think GTFS contains fare information. And even if it did, it would quickly be outdated, with Amtrak fares possibly changing several times a day.
 
I don't think GTFS contains fare information. And even if it did, it would quickly be outdated, with Amtrak fares possibly changing several times a day.
They'd have to do it real or near real time. Perhaps they developed an API that is locked down to Google access (and likely with Google assistance). Railsforless.us could certainly use access to such an API. HTML scraping is not their approach. It cannot work with the dynamic interaction of the current website, that's what killed Amsnag. Railsforless.us have their own secret sauce, but a public API would be a lot easier than their current, hacky, method.

BTW, Amtrak has real time fare information, otherwise their website and app would not work. Air fares are far more volatile than Amtrak fares and Google (and Expedia, and Kayak, etc, etc) have access to that. It takes Amtrak exposing an API to Google, which the airlines apparently already have done.

No travel related company will be exchanging fare information using batch processing file transfers in this day and age. Especially not Google.
 
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This effort of Amtrak partnering with Google is quite amusing. We who work with RPA to produce the PDF timetables discovered a bug in the GTFS data - more than a year ago - where the schedules for multiple trains are incorrect. They leave on the wrong day. It is because Amtrak does not use the timezone local to the station, rather they use Eastern time.

So a 10PM departure for the Sunset Limited from Los Angeles is 1AM eastern time, the next day. Here are 2 screenshots, one from my phone showing the schedule search in Google and the other from Amtrak's website. The Sunset leaves at 10PM on Fridays, not Saturdays.

We have reported this problem to Amtrak multiple times with no reply - we just gave up. Literally billions in funding from the taxpayers and they can't even produce a correct digital schedule, nor do they care to do so.
That's really sad. I saw someone post this picture a few days ago:
amtrak-DST-fail.png
Source: Reddit.com | redlib proxy (Safereddit.com)

This trip takes place over the daylight saving change and the correct duration would be 1h25m. Decades of standardization for timestamps and timezones (GMT/UTC, Unix timestamps, tz/tzdata) and here we have Amtrak doing direct arithmetic on naïve timestamps or some other witchcraft arithmetic. (Naïve timestamps are timestamps not attached with a properly qualified timezone)

My guess is they have a flag or condition for DST days that triggers different arithmetic (rather than using proper timestamp arithmetic) but the "correct wrong" answer would be 2h25m as if the train's PHL arrival was "the second" 1:45AM. It's as if "Spring forward" arithmetic was accidentally applied. I emphasize again that this problem goes away if timestamps are done properly and we don't ignore decades of labor put into eliminating this problem.

I heard from support:
We appreciate your comments regarding travel time between New York, and Philadelphia. As information, the travel time is correct, and has nothing to do with Daylight savings time. Due to the time of travel, the ridership is minimal, and less stops will be made.
So wrong...even if it was non-stop on Acela it wouldn't be 25 minutes.
WHAT
 
I don't think GTFS contains fare information. And even if it did, it would quickly be outdated, with Amtrak fares possibly changing several times a day.
GTFS Fare is under development. Current V2 does not support dynamic fares and is not suitable for Amtrak. It is currently designed for representing transit fares and is used by several agencies.

In any case as you correctly point out, for dynamic fare like used by Amtrak the only truly useful fare is the one provided in a specific offer from the CRS as I indirectly alluded to earlier. All that can be provided statically is a range info and that currently cannot be represented in the GTFS Fare documents.
 
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GTFS Fare is under development. Current V2 does not support dynamic fares and is not suitable for Amtrak. It is currently designed for representing transit fares as nd is used by several agencies.

In any case as you correctly point out, for dynamic fare like used by Amtrak the only truly useful fare is the one provided in a specific offer from the CRS as I indirectly alluded to earlier. All that can be provided statically is a range info and that currently cannot be represented in the GTFS Fare documents.
To quote accurate fares, they would have to be exposed by Amtrak in real time with an API. As you point out, the GTFS docs are designed around fixed transit fares and are static in the bargain. The current GTFS real time standard is all around schedule and location info, not fares.
 
Do you usually search for future travel options while on the train? Way to be completely off point and grinding an axe just for the heck of it.
Did I say I was searching for “future travel options?” I can actually get work done using WiFi while on many UK and European trains.

We can access wifi in our cars (OnStar, Fordpass, Starlink and on planes). The technology is there. So why limit our “Googling” when stepping on trains?

The Google partnership is to make money or Amtrak wouldn’t be doing it. Making WiFi available on trains is not impossible. We don’t have much in the way of high speed trains yet, so making a way to be connected just might increase willingness to travel by train.
 
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