Amtrak request for proposal-Nationwide Food & Beverage Service

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If Amtrak replaced the cafe attendant and the servers on the train, would they still have enough OBS staff? So not asking the lower paid employees to do anything more than food service?
 
railiner said:
Bob Dylan said:
I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!

And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!
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I am not disagreeing with this, just very surprised the union would let that happen. What about the other example's I cited--Amtrak California and North Carolina?

As for the menu offered, Amtrak employees have nothing to do with that...they could just as well serve those items, or anything else the sponsor desired...
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I'm not sure how much the unions there had to do with it. The "Subway Affair" in New York may simply have been down to it being New York.

To be fair, I've raised the prospect in the context of Amtrak refusing to run the trains due to the PTC situation, but I do wonder if there was a real risk of MA and ME simply working with the MBTA instead of Amtrak if the latter didn't run the trains. There are other possibilities, too (e.g. if this was the case from the start-of-service, did the union have any say in the contract? Did the local railroad's unions object? Did the local in question even object?) which could simply come down to a front that isn't as united as we sometimes make it out to be. For example, it might be hard to get the operating crews to object over the OBS situation if the state simply threatens to use vending machines instead (or even, for that matter, if they end up preferring the new food...I recall that the Hoosier State conductor position was rather sought-after in part for the simple fact that you had an Amtrak "day job" where you could get a good, hot meal...one conductor I know sure as hell wasn't complaining that Ed Ellis's employees weren't union).
 
railiner said:
ehbowen said:
railiner said:
If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?
default_unsure.png
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There is precedent for it...how do you think the Santa Fe/Fred Harvey partnership operated (for most of its history), or the Pullman Company?
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I could be wrong, but pretty sure the employees aboard the dining cars offering "Fred Harvey" service, were Santa Fe employees.

The Pullman Company was a different matter. The Porter's and Pullman Conductor's did work for The Pullman Company, working on the Pullman owned cars. They were union employees, earning full Railroad Retirement benefits.
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At the end when the transition was made to "Santa Fe all the way," the dining car employees were ATSF and only the supervisors were Fred Harvey. However, I'm pretty sure that in earlier years (up to the early '60s or so) the dining car employees were also Fred Harvey.

Outsourcing does not have to mean, "screw the worker." Yes, in point of actual practice in recent years it does mean that, but it's not inherent in the operation. It is possible to recognize that some outside concern has a corporate culture and skill set which complements and strengthens your own, and to retain them and their employees as honored and properly compensated professionals. Again, I do live in the real world (and I personally have been "outsourced" for most of my career). But just because most current companies abuse the practice does not mean that you have to.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10)."
 
ehbowen said:
railiner said:
ehbowen said:
railiner said:
If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?
default_unsure.png
Click to expand...
There is precedent for it...how do you think the Santa Fe/Fred Harvey partnership operated (for most of its history), or the Pullman Company?
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, but pretty sure the employees aboard the dining cars offering "Fred Harvey" service, were Santa Fe employees.

The Pullman Company was a different matter. The Porter's and Pullman Conductor's did work for The Pullman Company, working on the Pullman owned cars. They were union employees, earning full Railroad Retirement benefits.
Click to expand...
At the end when the transition was made to "Santa Fe all the way," the dining car employees were ATSF and only the supervisors were Fred Harvey. However, I'm pretty sure that in earlier years (up to the early '60s or so) the dining car employees were also Fred Harvey.

Outsourcing does not have to mean, "screw the worker." Yes, in point of actual practice in recent years it does mean that, but it's not inherent in the operation. It is possible to recognize that some outside concern has a corporate culture and skill set which complements and strengthens your own, and to retain them and their employees as honored and properly compensated professionals. Again, I do live in the real world (and I personally have been "outsourced" for most of my career). But just because most current companies abuse the practice does not mean that you have to.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10)."
Click to expand...
Aren't you the incurable optimist. Unfortunately, the entire purpose of a corporation is to make money --- and lots of it.
 
MikefromCrete said:
ehbowen said:
At the end when the transition was made to "Santa Fe all the way," the dining car employees were ATSF and only the supervisors were Fred Harvey. However, I'm pretty sure that in earlier years (up to the early '60s or so) the dining car employees were also Fred Harvey.

Outsourcing does not have to mean, "screw the worker." Yes, in point of actual practice in recent years it does mean that, but it's not inherent in the operation. It is possible to recognize that some outside concern has a corporate culture and skill set which complements and strengthens your own, and to retain them and their employees as honored and properly compensated professionals. Again, I do live in the real world (and I personally have been "outsourced" for most of my career). But just because most current companies abuse the practice does not mean that you have to.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10)."
Click to expand...
Aren't you the incurable optimist. Unfortunately, the entire purpose of a corporation is to make money --- and lots of it.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't be.
 
Yes, while outsourcing today has a bad connotation, it doesn't always have to be. I spent a large part of my working life performing work under contract or supervising and providing support to teams of workers performing telecommunications work that companies could have had an employee/employees perform. My company was a signatory to the inside electrical workers contract, and I and my colleagues were compensated at the very top of the industry scales. There were companies that had more important things to be concerned with than sick day and vacation coverage, coverage during training, 24/7/365 emergencies, spare parts and engineering back up. Even spare whole systems. Talent retention and recruitment are real issues for special skills High end hotels, hospitals, financial firms and the like were happy to pay more for guaranteed performance.
 
Triley said:
crescent-zephyr said:
The current Amtrak food service employees don't do anything other than food service.
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Not necessarily. Many crew bases cross-qualify their attendants. Or look at the Auto Train, where attendants can work a coach one way, but as the LSA on their way back, and that's how the jobsc are actually designed there.
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And I'd like to add that the Auto Train employees are the absolute best and head-and-shoulders above all of the other Silver Service LD trains as far as pleasantness and attitude. Maybe moving people around different crafts makes them happier?
 
cocojacoby said:
Triley said:
crescent-zephyr said:
The current Amtrak food service employees don't do anything other than food service.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. Many crew bases cross-qualify their attendants. Or look at the Auto Train, where attendants can work a coach one way, but as the LSA on their way back, and that's how the jobsc are actually designed there.
Click to expand...
And I'd like to add that the Auto Train employees are the absolute best and head-and-shoulders above all of the other Silver Service LD trains as far as pleasantness and attitude. Maybe moving people around different crafts makes them happier?
Click to expand...
Oh I think I had read the post wrong.... I had meant they don't work a job other than food service on the same train, meaning they don't work as a coach attendant but also as a dining car server on the same train.

Cross-training I knew was a thing as one of my favorites from the LA crew base is Barbara. She's been my waitress on the Chief and also my sleeper attendant on the Starlight.
 
Anderson said:
railiner said:
Bob Dylan said:
I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!

And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!
Click to expand...
I am not disagreeing with this, just very surprised the union would let that happen. What about the other example's I cited--Amtrak California and North Carolina?

As for the menu offered, Amtrak employees have nothing to do with that...they could just as well serve those items, or anything else the sponsor desired...
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how much the unions there had to do with it. The "Subway Affair" in New York may simply have been down to it being New York.

To be fair, I've raised the prospect in the context of Amtrak refusing to run the trains due to the PTC situation, but I do wonder if there was a real risk of MA and ME simply working with the MBTA instead of Amtrak if the latter didn't run the trains. There are other possibilities, too (e.g. if this was the case from the start-of-service, did the union have any say in the contract? Did the local railroad's unions object? Did the local in question even object?) which could simply come down to a front that isn't as united as we sometimes make it out to be. For example, it might be hard to get the operating crews to object over the OBS situation if the state simply threatens to use vending machines instead (or even, for that matter, if they end up preferring the new food...I recall that the Hoosier State conductor position was rather sought-after in part for the simple fact that you had an Amtrak "day job" where you could get a good, hot meal...one conductor I know sure as hell wasn't complaining that Ed Ellis's employees weren't union).
Click to expand...
Fair point's...The operating crew's have always been in "a class above" the other RR crews. And even of themselves, the engineer is at the top of the food chain, so-to-speak.
 
Since the pre-Iowa Pacific Hoosier State didn't carry a cafe car, the IP employee serving up food didn't replace an Amtrak employee, so the conductor can be given some leeway here in not supporting his fellow employees.
 
Cross-training may be seen as evil by some, but in my industry being able to do more than one job well increases personal job security. It can also help a company survive, which benefits both labor and management.
 
railiner said:
crescent-zephyr said:
North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.

California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.
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Different menu's...no problem. But who does (or did), the prep and serving on those Cascade bistro cars?
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I can't speak to how it was handled as far as titles go (was were both LSAs, or was one a SA?) But I can say that when there are two people working the Cascades, we're both LSAs. Just finished out my tour for the week of assisting fellow attendants between Seattle and Vancouver.
We still do the oatmeal, and Ivar's clam chowder as well. The oatmeal is steel cut, so we do cook it in bulk (by adding hot water and sitting it in a soup well) just before opening the car for service. The chowder as you should know is reheated in a microwave, but still turns out well. Was a real busy trip tonight, but I'd say I scooped just under 20 cups of it. It's good stuff.
 
Triley said:
railiner said:
crescent-zephyr said:
North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.

California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.
Click to expand...
Different menu's...no problem. But who does (or did), the prep and serving on those Cascade bistro cars?
Click to expand...
I can't speak to how it was handled as far as titles go (was were both LSAs, or was one a SA?) But I can say that when there are two people working the Cascades, we're both LSAs. Just finished out my tour for the week of assisting fellow attendants between Seattle and Vancouver.
We still do the oatmeal, and Ivar's clam chowder as well. The oatmeal is steel cut, so we do cook it in bulk (by adding hot water and sitting it in a soup well) just before opening the car for service. The chowder as you should know is reheated in a microwave, but still turns out well. Was a real busy trip tonight, but I'd say I scooped just under 20 cups of it. It's good stuff.
Click to expand...
Scooped 20 cups of it but did you serve any to the passengers also?
 
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I have been curious as to how Amtrak unionized OBS pay compares to airline unionized cabin crew pay. The airline crew apparently has more specific safety role than the rail OBS crew in addition to just providing services too?
 
jis said:
I have been curious as to how Amtrak unionized OBS pay compares to airline unionized cabin crew pay. The airline crew apparently has more specific safety role than the rail OBS crew in addition to just providing services too?
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My impression is that the pay levels are comparable. Both are reasonable well paid with good benefits. In food and beverage testimony before Congress several years ago, the Amtrak IG quoted fully loaded compensation for an Amtrak food service employee at $41 per hour. Fully loaded does not equate to what they get paid. I remember my fully loaded compensation used for reimbursable work and I sure was not paid that number.

One big difference is that airline flight attendants are part of the operating crew with very specific operational duties. As such, they are also subject to hours of service and minimum rest period requirements. Amtrak on board service employees are not part of the operating crew and are not subject to hours of service limitations. There is no operational need for them. If an Amtrak train is short a food server or a sleeper attendant, it can still operate regulation. An aircraft short one flight attendant cannot.
 
Regional airlines, United Express, Delta Conection, American Eagle. CRJ, EMB 175s etc. The flight attendants all make close to minimum wage when duty hours are added in ( only paid when planes door is shut). 14 hour day with 6-7 hours flight time equals about $126 a day. ($18 per hour/7 hours). The time between flights which routinely can be 1-3 hours is paid only at a per diem of about $1.75 per hour. Some airlines are worse, Mesa, some are better Skywest, but cabin crew at that level all make $18-25,000 tops. No real retirement usually a 5 percent match to a 401k and a high deductible health care plan at $200 a month for employee.

Up until about a year ago the First Officers didnt make much more. With the pilot shortage F/Os now start at about $35,000 and get modest COLA increases til they make Captain. Captains at those airlines make in the $70,000-80,000 range with same benefits as noted. So basically theyre the only ones making head of household wages on the plane.

Yes its a pipeline to the majors for pilots but with the regionals making up half of the flying out there some people wont be moving up.

All things included Amtrak OBS have a good but demanding gig:).
 
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An interesting comparison would be with employees on cruise ships. In 1990 I was working on a US-flag oil tanker making $27400 per year as an Oiler. However, our 2nd assistant engineer was coming off a stint on a foreign flag Caribbean cruise ship. He told me that he was paid $5000 per year...and as an American citizen he was the highest paid unlicensed crewman on the ship. The Captain was only making $11000 per year (in the mid-1980s). I was paid more as an E-5 in the Navy!
 

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