Amtrak Routes

[Guest_Jerry]

Why doesn't Amtrak have any LA-Vegas, Cincy-Cleveland, Chicago-Florida, or Texas Triangle service? Why weren't these routes included when the system was made and why weren't they added? Did studies show that there wasn't any demand? It would seem to me that these route would have more demand than lets say, Dallas-Oklahoma or Chicago-Quincy. Instead of operating low-potential routes, why can't Amtrak operate these high-potential routes?

 

[Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee]

$$$$$$$$ ........... :lol: OBS...

 

[trainflyer]

FL-Chicago did exist, but Amtrak is having difficulties with FL routes as it is.

Cincinnati-Cleveland would be plausible, but the state of Ohio would have to pay for it.

 

[Guest_Jerry]

I know it's about the money, but how come these routes weren't part of the system when Amtrak was first launched in 1971? If there is demand, money would be given. And what was the reason for the Chi-FL route being discontinued?

 

[AlanB]

I know it's about the money, but how come these routes weren't part of the system when Amtrak was first launched in 1971?

Some of the routes you mention were part of Amtrak originally, as shown in this map of the Amtrak system from 1975. Thanks to NARP for the above map.

Many of those routes were cut due to lack of federal funding.

If there is demand, money would be given.

There is demand, 25 Million people rode Amtrak last year, yet proper funding wasn't given.

And what was the reason for the Chi-FL route being discontinued?

To my knowledge, once again, lack of funding.

 

[National Limited]

What was ridership like on the Chicago-Florida train (Floridian?)?

 

[rile42]

Ohio will not fund a Cleveland-Cinncinnati corridor under the current governor. Unless, he is offered some dinners and golf outings.

 

[battalion51]

I'll take him to McDonalds and Mini golf. :lol:

 

[bwilburn542004]

I'm from Ohio and it would be great to see Ohio fund a Cincy-Cleveland route but as stated you would need to throw in a few bags of coins along with the dinners and golf! B) :lol:

 

[Trogdor]

Rare, historic coins?

 

[Guest_Jerry]

So out of all the routes on the system, those routes were chosen because of lack of demand? Was there ever any Dallas-Houston corridor service ever? How did it do? What about Cincy-Cleveland?

 

[Trogdor]

I don't think "demand," per se, has ever really been a factor in which routes Amtrak runs. There's plenty of untapped demand out there for passenger rail. There just isn't (and, frankly, never has been) enough money out there to put together some decent service.

For example, LA-Las Vegas is (IIRC) the second-biggest travel corridor in the country. There's plenty of demand. A quick check of airline schedules would reveal dozens and dozens of flights per day between these cities, on several airlines. A couple of trains per day would do quite well. There's just no money to start the service.

Same thing with Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati, Dallas-Houston, Detroit-Cleveland, etc. It takes money to run a transportaiton system in this country. Unortunately, unless that system is made of concrete and asphalt (and mostly single-occupant vehicles), there isn't much money available to do it.

 

[GG-1]

I don't think "demand," per se, has ever really been a factor in which routes Amtrak runs. There's plenty of untapped demand out there for passenger rail. There just isn't (and, frankly, never has been) enough money out there to put together some decent service.
For example, LA-Las Vegas is (IIRC) the second-biggest travel corridor in the country. There's plenty of demand. A quick check of airline schedules would reveal dozens and dozens of flights per day between these cities, on several airlines. A couple of trains per day would do quite well. There's just no money to start the service.

Aloha

Several years ago (many) actually twice, I rode to LV from LA by train to go to a convention, the train was packed to capacity. The next time when I tried to book the same trip the Agent tried to put me on a "motor coach" She absolutely would not say bus.

Even though I did want to visit family in LA I will not take a six hour bus ride unless someone pays me.

I have never understood why a full train gets canceled because I didn’t make money. Both trips I would guess 2/300 people were on board, 12 cars of passengers, I think. Greatest trip of my none overnight trips. I think the train was called the Desert Wind...

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

What was ridership like on the Chicago-Florida train (Floridian?)?

The Floridian was plagued with dangerous poorly repaired tracks, causing much slow running , many delays and several wrecks. It was a rolling disaster. They lengthened the schedule considerably, tried flp-flopping the schedule and made changes in the route, none of which ultimately helped.

There is no doubt that there is tremendous CHI-FL ridership potential but I guess not many wanted to come back to the train after trips as described above.

Historically, back before Amtrak, there have been four or five different routes from CHI, Detroit, etc to Florida but none of them have had passenger service maintenance for years. So it would be hard getting it started again. Of course, this not to mention all the budgetary, co-operation of the states, etc obstacles already noted.

Needless to say, I would much enjoy and be benfitted by such restored service, esp. if it went through Atlanta and my hometown,Chattanooga(which the Floridian did not).

As already indicated CHI-FL was part of Amtrak's original routes (formerly called the South Wind) and lasted until 1979. The train was called South Wind when Amtrak first took over but it soon became renamed The Floridian.

And BTW, just to better illustrate what I was talking about, the original South Wind(1940) was about THIRTEEN hours faster from CHI to Miami than the Floridian was on its last schedule.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Was there ever any Dallas-Houston corridor service ever?  How did it do?

There was never any "corridor" service between Dallas and Houston. However, there was at one time a section off the TEXAS EAGLE that went to Houston. So at that time there was one daily train in each direction between those two cities. I don't know how the ridership was.

That train has been "replaced" by an Amtrak Thruway bus that runs between Longview, TX, Houston, and Galveston. It does not provide service for Dallas people to get to Houston; it is for connecting passengers coming from or going to points north on the TEXAS EAGLE. Until the recent Greyhound cuts earlier this year, there was a Dallas-Houston Thruway bus that connected to/from points east on the SUNSET LIMITED at Houston. The Thruway connection no longer exists, and even if it had not been cancelled, the SUNSET is currently not running east of San Antonio due to the results of Hurricane Katrina (so the bus connection would not have run either).

I should add that there has been talk of high speed rail service in Texas, although the Texas Triangle you refer to, while it makes the most sense, has been replaced by the Texas T-Bone (a T-shaped route that would still serve San Antonio, Houston, and the Dallas/Fort Worth area). And in Ohio, the 3-C Corridor (Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati) is also a designated high speed corridor. As high speed corridors that should allow multiple trips each day between those cities.

 

[PRR 60]

Chicago to Florida is a case in point of how times and transportation priorities have changed.

Up until the 1960’s mainline railroads were operated for the benefit of passenger service with freight service coexisting. Over time that priority reversed. All railroads, other than trackage owned by Amtrak or a passenger rail authority, are operated for the benefit of freight service with passenger trains squeezed in. That means slower speeds, more single track lines, and less lines themselves with mergers eliminating much of what once was a robust network of rail routes.

Back in 1961, the Floridian was operated by the Pennsyvania RR between Chicago and Miami and used trackage of the PRR, the Louisville & Nashville, the Atlantic Coast Line, and the Florida East Coast railroads. It left Chicago in the morning and arrived Miami late afternoon the next day. That one night trip, with only expensive air, uncomfortable bus, and two-lane highway competition, was an attractive option for the market.

Today, everything has changed. The old trackage between Chicago and Miami had either been downgraded to freight speeds or, in some cases, abandoned outright. A train today would have a much longer running time and would clearly require two nights on board. It would have to leave, say Monday at 4 or 5pm and would not arrive until Wednesday at about 10 or 11am. That is a long trip and, for Amtrak, very expensive to operate. In contrast, today’s competing air travel is fast and cheap. Interstate highways and quality roadside hotels make driving a real option. In short, rail today is much worse than in 1961, and the other modes (except bus) are much better. So why would a person who just wants to travel from Chicago to Miami take the train? And why would Amtrak want to operate such a route when their costs would be so high and their pricing would have to be so low.

Chicago to Miami is a perfect example of a rail route that time has past by.

 

[Superliner Diner]

It would have to leave, say Monday at 4 or 5pm and would not arrive until Wednesday at about 10 or 11am.

Assuming a Monday departure of 4 PM and a Wednesday arrival at 11 AM, that is 43 hours, give or take one hour for the time zone difference. The current routings via Washington or New York yield these times:

92-29 via Washington: 44 hours 33 minutes (plus 4 hours layover in WAS)

98-49 via New York: 46 hours 23 minutes (plus 5 hours layover in NYP)

30-91 via Washington: 44 hours 18 minutes (plus 3 hours layover in WAS)

48-97 via New York: Not possible.

One of the shortest CHI-MIA timings believe it or not is via 50 CHI-CVS, Thruway 4050 CVS-RVR, and 97 RVR-MIA. Only 41 hours on the two trains, 1-1/2 hours on the bus, and 3+ hours layover in Richmond.

What this all means is that the times via the east coast cities (with a change of trains) is comparable to the FLORIDIAN timing via one train and a more direct route. That shows how slow such a train would run.

 

[battalion51]

The one thing you have to remember though is that a Floridian today would be on track that's in a lot better condition. Whether the train takes NS or CSX the route between JAX and CHI is one of the most heavily used routes for Intermodal in the country. The big sticking point (besides money to get the train running, equipment, crews, etc.) is that it would take a lot of improvment at state or Amtrak's costs to get the freight companies to buy in. The NS Corridor from JAX to ATL would need a lot of sidings and/or double track to make NS feel that their high priority pigs and double stacks aren't going to get delayed due to Amtrak.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Here is a run-down of major midwest-Florida routes, as they would have been in the mid 50's.

1.South Wind(later re-namd Floridian under Amtrak, though Amtrak called it South WInd at first), Chicago, Indianapollis ,Louisville,Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery,Jacksonville ,Miami(later west coast as well)

2.Dixie Flagler(re-named Dixieland in 1954) , Dixie Flyer, etc, Chicago, Evansville, Ind., Nashville,Chattanooga,Atlanta,Jacksonville ,Miami, west coast connections

3.City of Miami,Seminole, same route as today's City of New Orleans as far as Fulton,Ky, then BIrmingham,Columbus, Ga., Jacksonville, Miami, later west coast as well.

4.Royal Palm, New Royal Palm, Ponce de Leon, Various Great Lakes cities, like Detroit, Cleveland,Buffalo,Chicago converged in Cinncinati and went to Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Jacksonville, Miami, west coast connections.

5.Flamingo, Southland, Great lakes cities as above in #4, converge in Cincinnati to Knoxville, Atlanta, Albany, west coast Florida primarily , east coast connections.

6.Kansas City Florida Special, Sunnyland, .Kansas City, Springfield, Mo., Memphis, BIrmingham,Atlanta, Jacksonville, Miami, west coast connections.

The speedster streamliners from the above list would be the South Wind, the Dixie Flagler(later re-named Dixieland) and the City of Miami, about 31 hours CHI to Miami. ALso a speedster was the Detroit Miami wing of the New Royal Palm(a winter season only train)

The Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) was discontinued in late 1957. followed shortly by the Southland, the first two major casualties of the formerly vast midwest-Florida network. When the Southland was dropped, cars to Tampa Sarasota and St Pete were added to the City of Miami and the South Wind.

But BTW, these trains were not all daily, The South Wind, Dixie Flagler and City of Miami for years(from about 1940) operated every third day in rotation with each other. In later years the Wind and the City started operating more frequently. When the Dixieland was gone by late 1957 they became totally every other day in rotation with each other.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

There was an earlier mention that there was no corrider between Dallas and Houston, And that is correct, so far as Amtrak goes. And this is an Amtrak forum, though I over-step the boundaries from time to time.

But there was a pre-Amtrak corrider years ago. I think its top trains were called the Sunbeam and the Hustler. I think they were operated by a subsidiary of the Southern Pacific Railroad.

Actually there were a lot of places which used to have trains--the same places we wish they had them today. The idea behind Amtrak was supposedly sort of like tearing it all down, start all over small with the most promising routes and gradually build back up. It has had some success, but some failures also with that mission.

 

[daveyb99]

There was never any "corridor" service between Dallas and Houston. However, there was at one time a section off the TEXAS EAGLE that went to Houston. So at that time there was one daily train in each direction between those two cities. I don't know how the ridership was.

Between Dallas and Houston, best research I have is:

The first was in the 70's, when Houston was the end point of the LONE STAR, but that ran from Fort Worth.

The second was in the late 80's with the TEXAS EAGLE, which ran through Dallas while enroute Chicago-Houston.

The third dates escape me, but it was a spur of the TEXAS EAGLE which split off in Taylor, TX to Houson.

 

[Guest_Timetableflagman]

Even at freight speed, on the mainline, a new Floridian/Southwind service could run from Chicago to Jacksonville in about 36 hours.

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

Why doesn't Amtrak have any LA-Vegas, Cincy-Cleveland, Chicago-Florida, or Texas Triangle service?

Why doesn't Amtrak have any medium-high-speed through service to Alaska and (joining continental US, Canadian, Alaskan, Russian lines) further? Because. Neither Weapon Industry nor Halliburton will get fat cheques from such projects. Creating jobs for millions, propelling the involved regions to high-tech, yours and yours and mine convenience to travel civilized way and save on gas is not on the roadmap of some "compassionate conservatives" - just maybe "non-compassionate" ones or just sane people. Don't worry - this is not only about the rails. Saving lives of poor in "Big Easy" during Katrina was not on the roadmap either. BTW: Costs of such "mega-rail" project I did mention above project is less, than what was alrady burned in I...q and oh, well, more money is going to burn - and don't hold your breath back until you can reach Anchorage (or even LVS) by rail from LA. :angry:

 

[haolerider]

What??