Amtrak snack bars lost $84.5 million last year
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If you view Amtrak's food service cars as restaurants intending to make a profit, you'll inevitably come to the conclusion that they lose a lot of money and are thus inefficient. However, if you view them in a light similar to the food services provided by hotels, then you'll realize that regardless of how much money Amtrak's food service cars appear to be losing on the surface, they are a necessary part of Amtrak's operations, especially on medium- and long-distance trips. As former senator Trent Lott put it, "Don't mess with people's stomachs."
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Typical Garbage In Garbage Out reasoning. According to that principle Southwest Airlines should be losing money hand over fist.
Maybe it's in how the accounting is done. Who knows? 
hboy:
hboy:
Ryan
Court Jester
And the same amount we give away to oil companies so that they can maintain their record profits every 10 weeks!!!
Thank you for reminding me why I've never given money to the Heritage Foundation...they seem to enjoy focusing on this and ignoring much larger things that could save "real" money (at least, in terms of the Federal budget).
Edit: And I threw in a comment, just for fun:
"Considering that it was but a very small part of the overall report, why did you feel the need to open with the Amtrak trivia? It was among the smaller things spotted in the report, yet it gets top billing? Did you want to distract people from the larger things that were found in the report?"
Edit: And I threw in a comment, just for fun:
"Considering that it was but a very small part of the overall report, why did you feel the need to open with the Amtrak trivia? It was among the smaller things spotted in the report, yet it gets top billing? Did you want to distract people from the larger things that were found in the report?"
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TimePeace
Disillusioned.
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Right on.
First of all, I expect the $84.5 million is for all food and beverages sales: LD train diner and food cars, café cars, not just corridor train "snack" bars. To put the number in perspective, in FY11, Amtrak had $1,851.5 million in ticket revenue, $109.4 million in food and beverage revenue, $191.1 million in state contributions.
The apparent cost recovery on F&B was about 56% system wide using the numbers above. Not great, but adoption of electronic point of sales systems and better menus should reduce losses and improve sales. As of July, 2012 for the first 10 months of the fiscal year, F&B revenue was $100.3 million, $9.7 million over the budget projection. May be able to get to break-even on the busiest corridor trains for F&B sales, just not going to happen with longer range train services. Part of the cost of running them.
The apparent cost recovery on F&B was about 56% system wide using the numbers above. Not great, but adoption of electronic point of sales systems and better menus should reduce losses and improve sales. As of July, 2012 for the first 10 months of the fiscal year, F&B revenue was $100.3 million, $9.7 million over the budget projection. May be able to get to break-even on the busiest corridor trains for F&B sales, just not going to happen with longer range train services. Part of the cost of running them.
Well, and I suspect that the numbers don't involve the state "kick-in" to cover OBS on some corridors. I know there are a few that don't operate like that quite yet (though that shift is coming), but I believe that would make some of these losses "disappear".
With that said, my understanding is that OBS CR is around 75% (and slowly rising) on the NEC. It's hard to measure on the state-supported corridors because of the state kick-in getting dumped in the mix for Amtrak's purposes. And on the LD trains, it's quite a bit lower (both because you have two FSCs on most of those trains which serve about 4-5 coaches' worth of pax instead of one car serving as many or more pax, and because one of those is a full-service diner that is often not being fully utilized...especially since a lot of folks don't even realize that it's there).
I think we could realistically hope for OBS CR to get into the 80% range on most non-LD routes with some improvements to inventory management (to avoid prematurely running out of some things on longer runs) and potentially beefing up commissary operations (for example, setting something up in Buffalo to deal with the longer-range Empire trains), and maybe a little higher if trains keep getting longer and carrying more passengers.
On the LD front, the question is a bit more complicated: I don't know how far you can go on the dining cars (though I suspect there's some room for improvement there if you add more cars to the train), and likewise I don't know if you could improve things by directing the diner staff to utilize part of the cafe for seating and/or promoting takeout orders to coach passengers when the diner is mostly full. Still, part of the issue would seem to be that some of those trains could be substantially longer on a regular basis (i.e. 4-5 coaches on the Superliner trains versus 3 being standard now, plus potentially adding a sleeper to three or four of them; the Viewliner trains are likely a bit more hamstrung, but even there it seems likely that you could stretch some of those trains further before platforming troubles become a real problem), but equipment issues get in the way.
With that said, my understanding is that OBS CR is around 75% (and slowly rising) on the NEC. It's hard to measure on the state-supported corridors because of the state kick-in getting dumped in the mix for Amtrak's purposes. And on the LD trains, it's quite a bit lower (both because you have two FSCs on most of those trains which serve about 4-5 coaches' worth of pax instead of one car serving as many or more pax, and because one of those is a full-service diner that is often not being fully utilized...especially since a lot of folks don't even realize that it's there).
I think we could realistically hope for OBS CR to get into the 80% range on most non-LD routes with some improvements to inventory management (to avoid prematurely running out of some things on longer runs) and potentially beefing up commissary operations (for example, setting something up in Buffalo to deal with the longer-range Empire trains), and maybe a little higher if trains keep getting longer and carrying more passengers.
On the LD front, the question is a bit more complicated: I don't know how far you can go on the dining cars (though I suspect there's some room for improvement there if you add more cars to the train), and likewise I don't know if you could improve things by directing the diner staff to utilize part of the cafe for seating and/or promoting takeout orders to coach passengers when the diner is mostly full. Still, part of the issue would seem to be that some of those trains could be substantially longer on a regular basis (i.e. 4-5 coaches on the Superliner trains versus 3 being standard now, plus potentially adding a sleeper to three or four of them; the Viewliner trains are likely a bit more hamstrung, but even there it seems likely that you could stretch some of those trains further before platforming troubles become a real problem), but equipment issues get in the way.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
If Amtrak trains, especially the longer distance ones, stopped every few hours for an hour or so, for all passengers can get off and eat some food at a restaurant near the current station, I wonder how much that would cost?
What if each Acela stopped, say, in Philly for an hour breakfast or lunch break, how much would that cost Amtrak overall?
Ryan
Court Jester
It would cost them in ridership dearly.
The last thing that Amtrak needs is hours and hours and hours every day sitting around slowing trains down.
Trains used to do that. There are good reasons they don't anymore.
George Harris
Engineer
What we see here is a mixture of completely unrelated issues.
"Federal spending over the past 20 years has surged 71 percent faster than inflation" does NOT say that Amtrak spending has surged 71 percetn faster than inflation. I would suspect that not only has it not, it very likely has not increased at even the same rate as inflation. Whoever wrote thins piece of nonsense simply is grinding his anti-Amtrak axe, and "the truth is not in him."
"Federal spending over the past 20 years has surged 71 percent faster than inflation" does NOT say that Amtrak spending has surged 71 percetn faster than inflation. I would suspect that not only has it not, it very likely has not increased at even the same rate as inflation. Whoever wrote thins piece of nonsense simply is grinding his anti-Amtrak axe, and "the truth is not in him."
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_prez_oil_tax_break_lies_Y2Yj6KCU9QIO0BKHs1Be7M
Wrong. We DO NOT give oil companies subsidies OR tax breaks. There is a common axiom that if you repeat a big lie enough people will believe it. AMTRAK gets a SUBSIDY.
The oil companies take the same "tax deductions" as my father in law who owned a liquor store.
"The latest published data for the fourth quarter of 2011 shows the oil and natural gas industry earned 6.2 cents for every dollar of sales. These earnings are in line with the average of other major U.S. manufacturing industries, which earned 8.3 cents for every dollar of sales. Like other sectors, the oil and natural gas industry strives to maintain a healthy earnings capability to remain competitive and benefit its millions of shareholders, (From Energy Answered)
It is funny how a certain political party demonizes the oil industry yet 95% of all Americans 401Ks have oil, bank and gas holding in their portfolio and 98% of UNION pension funds have the same. Nothing like pissing in your own Cherrios.
As far as the OP and using my economics background and my work background, most food services in connection with a service industry (train, plane, hotel, casino, Disney, Five Flags, professional sports) barely break even or are a loss leader. I guess it may be a shock to the uneducated, but not I.
Remember, my degree is in Economics. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
NAVYBLUE
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Ryan
Court Jester
I find your use of big oil propaganda unconvincing, Chief.
It's also outside the scope of this discussion, so you can take your gun fight to a more appropriate forum, 'cause I ain't biting.
It's also outside the scope of this discussion, so you can take your gun fight to a more appropriate forum, 'cause I ain't biting.
Would there be a market to simply have meals catered in by an outside company, distributed on the train at a crew change/longer stop? Maybe have it prepaid or pay-on-board.
Shortline
Conductor
Hey, I did MY part. They could have lost only 84.49999 million, if they had just stocked more Sierra Nevada Pale Ale!
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The problem there is delays. What do you do if/when a train gets "stuck" short of a distribution stop? This isn't to say that there's not room for commissary improvements in various places, but you do run into trouble when you're running a commissary for a single train.
As a good example, were there a corridor operation on the Front Range, it would make sense to restock the Zephyr at Denver (I think I've brought this idea up in the past). Likewise, it might make sense to plan a restock at Minneapolis or Spokane on the Builder...but having a commissary for one daily train at a given stop doesn't make sense because of the overhead. Having restock locations along the line on frequently-traveled corridors (WAS and NYP come to mind, as does LAX on the Surfliner) works, and something akin to the at-seat meals on the Acela might be something to look at for CHI-STL-KCY trains (among others). A restock at BUF would also make sense for both the LSL and the Empire trains.
But the problem with the LD trains is that on the one hand, much of their territory isn't duplicated by other trains (and really, there's often very little sharing off of a few corridors outside of endpoints, and those trains with those duplications aren't usually the ones with the food shortages), and on the other they're far more likely to hit nasty delays that would result in them not reaching a "meal restock stop" by the right time.
G
guest
Guest
Oil companies don't get tax subsidies or favorable deals?
Read this simple article and tell me otherwise!
History of U.S. Oil Subsidies Go Back Nearly a Century
President Barack Obama announced he is supporting a bill in the Senate that removes subsidies for oil companies. CBS News reports the legislation, sponsored by Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., was voted down in a procedural move. Menendez needed 60 votes to pass the bill but only got 51 votes to move forward. The bill would have ended oil subsidies to large companies such as ExxonMobil, Chevron, BP, ConocoPhillips and Royal Dutch Shell.
Here's a look at the history of subsidies for oil exploration in the United States.
for full article, here's the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/history-u-oil-subsidies-back-nearly-century-215500548.html
Read this simple article and tell me otherwise!
History of U.S. Oil Subsidies Go Back Nearly a Century
President Barack Obama announced he is supporting a bill in the Senate that removes subsidies for oil companies. CBS News reports the legislation, sponsored by Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., was voted down in a procedural move. Menendez needed 60 votes to pass the bill but only got 51 votes to move forward. The bill would have ended oil subsidies to large companies such as ExxonMobil, Chevron, BP, ConocoPhillips and Royal Dutch Shell.
Here's a look at the history of subsidies for oil exploration in the United States.
for full article, here's the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/history-u-oil-subsidies-back-nearly-century-215500548.html
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
You're the one who said we "give" away millions to the oil company. Dispute my "facts" instead of showing your hate for people who create jobs. Show me in the tax code where someone gets a "subsidy". Look up the word subsidy. AMTRAK gets a subsidy. Milk producers get a subsidy. Ethanol producers get a subsidy. Subsidies come from NON tax laws. Oil and gas companies don't get subsidies. My father in law didn't get a subsidy.
NAVYBLUE
PS: And we have had this discussion before. It is MASTER CHIEF, not Chief. You as a former Lieutenant should no better. I earned that rank. I didn't just show up with a pulse for (4) years to get (2) promotions.
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
Oh wow !!! Yahoo News. Now there is an authoritative financial source.
Here is a part of that article. "deducted from a company's expenses for tax purposes" This is allowed under the "TAX" code. There are NO subsidies in the tax code. Just because Yahoo is stupid and doesn't know the difference between a subsidy (congressional law) and a tax deduction (tax code), doesn't mean you have to be a lemming and jump over the cliff with them. If I can give you some advice it would be Yahoo is NOT a good financial source and Wikipedia is for people who are too lazy to do the proper research.
Just so you know who your dealing with newbie. I have a degree in Economics, have read over 150 NON college professor written Economic, Finance, Statistics, Marketing books, challenged all (4) years of college, have read and understand 99% of the Federal budget and about 25% of the tax code. I managed the Sales department at a resort and was asst manager at a restaurant. I think I know a little bit about economics and the tax code.
Also go read my reply to Ryan. He also thinks a tax deduction is a subsidy also.
NAVYBLUE
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Gentlemen, a word of caution here as things seem to be heating up. Please let's keep a civil tone and not let things get out of hand. I've already made one small edit to a post, although I won't single out who's post it was, but I removed the word "stupid" from a post. I would prefer not to have to do more, or worse close things down.
So I urge both sides to please take a deep breath and count to 3 first, before writing further replies as this topic moves along.
Thanks!
So I urge both sides to please take a deep breath and count to 3 first, before writing further replies as this topic moves along.
Thanks!
Ryan
Court Jester
OK, Chief - lemme give you some advice that I hope you'll find helpful.
You may recall I said:
1. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it. Taking an adversarial tone, calling people names, putting words in their mouth and making (frequently incorrect) assumptions about their position isn't a route to earning any respect.
2. You can't tell people how smart you are. Prove it by making insightful posts filled with valuable information and people will recognize your supposedly superior knowledge. Waving about your degree and the number of books you've read doesn't mean a thing. Interestingly enough, this is tied in heavily with number 1. I'll highly suggest that you go read as many of Jishnu's posts as possible - out of everyone else here, he's almost certainly one of the most knowledgeable and widely respected posters. He doesn't insult people, he doesn't call people names, and he doesn't spend half of his posts telling people how smart he is. Learn his posting style, emulate it, and you'll find that you get treated with a whole lot more respect.
3. Stop committing logical fallacies. Go back and read my post, and let me know where I said "subsidies". I'll wait.
Couldn't find it, could you? That's what's known as a strawman - misrepresent someone else's argument, and then attack the heck out of a position that they never actually took. Looks really good, until someone points it out, then you end up looking foolish. Then you follow it up with an ad hom "Ryan can't possibly know what he's talking about, since he doesn't even understand the basic difference between a tax deduction and a subsidy". I can assure you that I do, and government "gifts" (which *is* the word I actually used) take more than one form. Both fallacies just end up causing strife and discontent.
4. Guest posters aren't necessarily "newbies", so calling them "newbie" isn't just rude, but it's also potentially incorrect. They've chosen for some reason not to register, or are registered posters that for some reason are unable to log in (public computer, something like that). Quite honestly, given how poorly you treat people that disagree with you, it unsurprising that someone disagreeing with you wants as much anonymity as possible.
You may recall I said:
and I'm sticking to that. However, there are a few things in your posts that I'd like to address in hopes of making the threads you participate in slightly less of a heartache for our hardworking moderation staff.
1. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it. Taking an adversarial tone, calling people names, putting words in their mouth and making (frequently incorrect) assumptions about their position isn't a route to earning any respect.
2. You can't tell people how smart you are. Prove it by making insightful posts filled with valuable information and people will recognize your supposedly superior knowledge. Waving about your degree and the number of books you've read doesn't mean a thing. Interestingly enough, this is tied in heavily with number 1. I'll highly suggest that you go read as many of Jishnu's posts as possible - out of everyone else here, he's almost certainly one of the most knowledgeable and widely respected posters. He doesn't insult people, he doesn't call people names, and he doesn't spend half of his posts telling people how smart he is. Learn his posting style, emulate it, and you'll find that you get treated with a whole lot more respect.
3. Stop committing logical fallacies. Go back and read my post, and let me know where I said "subsidies". I'll wait.
Couldn't find it, could you? That's what's known as a strawman - misrepresent someone else's argument, and then attack the heck out of a position that they never actually took. Looks really good, until someone points it out, then you end up looking foolish. Then you follow it up with an ad hom "Ryan can't possibly know what he's talking about, since he doesn't even understand the basic difference between a tax deduction and a subsidy". I can assure you that I do, and government "gifts" (which *is* the word I actually used) take more than one form. Both fallacies just end up causing strife and discontent.
4. Guest posters aren't necessarily "newbies", so calling them "newbie" isn't just rude, but it's also potentially incorrect. They've chosen for some reason not to register, or are registered posters that for some reason are unable to log in (public computer, something like that). Quite honestly, given how poorly you treat people that disagree with you, it unsurprising that someone disagreeing with you wants as much anonymity as possible.
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