"Amtrak to add screenings, bomb-sniffing dogs"

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I hope this really is as unobtrusive and easy as they say it is. I wouldn't want Amtrak to lose one of its big advantages.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
I hope this really is as unobtrusive and easy as they say it is. I wouldn't want Amtrak to lose one of its big advantages.
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Yeah thats what I hate about flying. Though I work with a division of Homeland security so I have passes and what not if I want to avoid the lines, but still. The first time I flew was a few weeks after 9-11 and I was so scared. the whole thing freaked me out. That's why I don't fly. I'd hate to take trains off my list.
 
Sounds bad to me. I also subscribe to the belief that things like this are part of the point of terrorists attacking, their whole point is to try to disrupt lives and instill terror. We are just giving into them by doing things like this. I don't see any point in half of the security we have now. If a terrorist wants to attack bad enough they will find a way around any security measure we can come up with. I think the best thing to do is go on with our lives as normal only making changes where there is an obvious need. To me it would be more prudent to find a way to override pilot control of a hijacked aircraft and have a airtraffic controller land the plane remotely at a location with the proper law enforcement/military personnel on hand to deal with the situation. Trains have had this in the form of ATS/deadman devices for years.
 
I wonder if one gets a full refund in the event of a refusal, or if Amtrak's normal 10% penalty still applies. I sure hope not, as that would be wrong.
 
mercedeslove said:
Yeah thats what I hate about flying. Though I work with a division of Homeland security so I have passes and what not if I want to avoid the lines, but still. The first time I flew was a few weeks after 9-11 and I was so scared. the whole thing freaked me out. That's why I don't fly. I'd hate to take trains off my list.
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From what I saw in another story, your pass would exempt you from the search if indeed you were even selected for one.
 
AlanB said:
I wonder if one gets a full refund in the event of a refusal, or if Amtrak's normal 10% penalty still applies. I sure hope not, as that would be wrong.
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According to internal Amtrak information, passengers who refuse screening will be given a full refund of rail fare and accommodation charges.
 
Crescent ATN & TCL said:
Sounds bad to me. I also subscribe to the belief that things like this are part of the point of terrorists attacking, their whole point is to try to disrupt lives and instill terror. We are just giving into them by doing things like this. I don't see any point in half of the security we have now. If a terrorist wants to attack bad enough they will find a way around any security measure we can come up with. I think the best thing to do is go on with our lives as normal only making changes where there is an obvious need. To me it would be more prudent to find a way to override pilot control of a hijacked aircraft and have a airtraffic controller land the plane remotely at a location with the proper law enforcement/military personnel on hand to deal with the situation. Trains have had this in the form of ATS/deadman devices for years.
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While I don't totally disagree that the terrorists are winning, because they are indeed forcing us to change and to give up our freedoms, I don't really have a huge problem with this plan as outlined in the story.

If they keep things where they first just run an explosives test swab and don't actually search the luggage, unless a positive indication is received, then that is fine. I don't like the NYC program where they perform actual open case/open bag searches with no prior test while things are closed.

Now one area of the current security that Amtrak has running, I do disagree with. That being the requirements for photo ID's. The Federal Government is changing the rules for crossing our boarders because trained Customs agents are having trouble spotting fake drivers licenses. Yet here comes Amtrak which now requires ticket agents to check ID's, as well as random checks while on board, and yet no one has been provided any training on photo ID's. If trained customs agents can't spot phony ones, how can an untrained Amtrak employee spot one? And then there is of course the fact that many of the 9/11 terrorists actually had valid state issued drivers licenses from New Jersey.
 
You do not need a massive amount of security on trains, you cannot exactly turn them.

Personally, I think the best from of security in the world is a combination of Locke's state of nature with MAD, just let everyone pack heat, it works in Vermont...

P.S. I do not even take myself serious.
 
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A freight loaded with anything toxic would need greater security than a passenger train, except, perhaps trains that travel in urban tunnels. IMHO.
 
All security that doesn't involve complete strip searches, up to, and including, dental and rectal examinations, a complete and total search and dis-assembly of luggage, and a total separation of people from their belongings and any way of contacting them, is essentially surmountable. A constant search can be analyzed and surmounted. A random search can be beat by "flooding" or "decoying".

Flooding is the theory that while some people will be stopped, others won't. So you send 100 people with missions to blow up a train, and even if one out of the hundred make it through, ya got yourself a functioning plan. Decoying operates on the theory that "Random" searches are rarely random, but are in fact a matter of profiling and leads. So you carefully leak information that indicates that an agent A of yours is going to bring a bomb onto train X. And you do send A onto X. You also send the dreaded B onto train Y, and the fearsome C onto Train Z. While people are searching for A, B and C are having a field day.

ID checks, likewise, are a concept of hilarity. I knew someone in my school who got into the business of getting people into clubs and liquor stores. That is to say, he made fake licenses. He was an 17 year old kid, and he made some that the police ran and didn't realize were fake. All identification documents are paper, plastic, and magnetic strips. Thats all they amount to. They are hilariously easy to fake. Yes, if you put them under a 40X microscope or run laboratory tests on them, people are going to discover the fake. But you don't carry science labs into border check facilities, nor carry 40x microscopes.

Now, since the average citizen can procure pretty accurate fakes of these documents, what do you think a terrorist operation, backed by an organization of thousands and millions of dollars of backing, can do?
 
Green Maned Lion said:
All security that doesn't involve complete strip searches, up to, and including, dental and rectal examinations, a complete and total search and dis-assembly of luggage, and a total separation of people from their belongings and any way of contacting them, is essentially surmountable. A constant search can be analyzed and surmounted. A random search can be beat by "flooding" or "decoying".
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well if they are going to do this kind of search. I would at least like a dinner and movie before we get friendly.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
All security that doesn't involve complete strip searches, up to, and including, dental and rectal examinations, a complete and total search and dis-assembly of luggage, and a total separation of people from their belongings and any way of contacting them, is essentially surmountable. A constant search can be analyzed and surmounted. A random search can be beat by "flooding" or "decoying".
Flooding is the theory that while some people will be stopped, others won't. So you send 100 people with missions to blow up a train, and even if one out of the hundred make it through, ya got yourself a functioning plan. Decoying operates on the theory that "Random" searches are rarely random, but are in fact a matter of profiling and leads. So you carefully leak information that indicates that an agent A of yours is going to bring a bomb onto train X. And you do send A onto X. You also send the dreaded B onto train Y, and the fearsome C onto Train Z. While people are searching for A, B and C are having a field day.

ID checks, likewise, are a concept of hilarity. I knew someone in my school who got into the business of getting people into clubs and liquor stores. That is to say, he made fake licenses. He was an 17 year old kid, and he made some that the police ran and didn't realize were fake. All identification documents are paper, plastic, and magnetic strips. Thats all they amount to. They are hilariously easy to fake. Yes, if you put them under a 40X microscope or run laboratory tests on them, people are going to discover the fake. But you don't carry science labs into border check facilities, nor carry 40x microscopes.

Now, since the average citizen can procure pretty accurate fakes of these documents, what do you think a terrorist operation, backed by an organization of thousands and millions of dollars of backing, can do?
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I wholeheartedly agree, why do we punish ourselves with security checks that really have no point. I understand having security personnel on duty but its completely unnecessary to subject people to anywhere near the amount of security checks we do.
 
mercedeslove said:
Green Maned Lion said:
All security that doesn't involve complete strip searches, up to, and including, dental and rectal examinations, a complete and total search and dis-assembly of luggage, and a total separation of people from their belongings and any way of contacting them, is essentially surmountable. A constant search can be analyzed and surmounted. A random search can be beat by "flooding" or "decoying".
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well if they are going to do this kind of search. I would at least like a dinner and movie before we get friendly.
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:lol: I wasn't suggesting we start doing that. God forbid, I'd move to someplace I'd need the ARRs Hurricane Turn to get close to, about a days hike from anybody, and build myself a nice bunker I could isolate myself from society with.

I was just pointing out, somewhat descriptively, the number of holes in the concept of security, partially literally.
 
Well, the article compares these searches to those on NYC subways. I have never seen or been a part of any type of security check on NYC subways (true, I do not ride them super frequently) but you see the police, you know they are there, and you know they can search if they want too.

True random checks, as described, and the presense of security i think would be fine. Plus, good chance that sleeper passengers wont have to worry about this, when they are pre-boarded (at least I hope not!).

Do I think this could get out of hand? Yes. Am I worried yet? No, but I am hoping for the best.
 
If they have any brains, they'll do it primarily at small, unmanned stations on busy routes. They are the most likely to be targeted as a boarding point.
 
The amount of damage a sadistic person can do on a train, is less than that same person can do on a street in NY. While both pale in comparison to what a person can do with a plane

Personally I think the largest amount of security that should be enforced on, I guess what you would call fixed public transit (bus, rail, walking) is security cameras and the occasional cop on the actual transit.
 
couldn't get registered and the article downloaded but from what i gather from the posts i do not like it. i don't enjoy being treated like a criminal and feel that what would make us safer is not security checks but a rational foreign policy
 
Yawn,

Just another plan to show John/Joan Q Public that the Department of Homeland Security are doing something (visible) about terrorism. I agree, as another poster said, that the terrorists have already won...they've forced us to change.

I'm wondering if the the DHS has credible evidence that Terrorists were plotting against Amtrak?? If I were a terrorist, I'd say Amtrak was small potatoes, I'd aim for Commuter railroads and Subway Systems that carry many more people.
 
Actually the Feds have been after Amtrak to beef up security for some time now. Change seems to be a four letter word in Amtrak's dictionary but I, personally, am glad that something finally is being put in place.
 
frj1983 said:
Yawn,
I'm wondering if the the DHS has credible evidence that Terrorists were plotting against Amtrak?? If I were a terrorist, I'd say Amtrak was small potatoes, I'd aim for Commuter railroads and Subway Systems that carry many more people.
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If you're looking for evidence I don't think you would want the evidence after the fact; a devastated coach with multiple fatalities. True, Amtrak may be small potatoes compared to the NYC subway system or an NJT rush hour train but the American traveling public deserves security at every level of transportation. I would hope that some day there would be dogs screening people getting on Greyhound buses. Thats about as small potatoes, passenger wise, that you can get but they still are subject to terrorism riding a public conveyance.
 
Ummm... OK, so a terrorist would board at New Carrolton instead of DC. Big deal. I'd be more concerned about screening pax coming into Washington DC rather than going out.

Amtrak stations for the most part are not gated, so access to the platforms (and even getting on a train) is pretty open. Tighten the screws at a few key spots, and you're actually encouraging someone to engage at a weaker point.

Best security measure that can be put in place is fully gated stations and platforms, security cameras, and staff.

Screen the names that are on reservations. Increase police (which they are trying to do, but can't seem to get the staff). Even (eek) support profiling. That doesn't mean pull aside every person wearing a yamika or a turban, but profile body language.

Taking Granma aside at WAS to see if she's carrying NASA issued Depends is NOT the best way to ensure our safety.
 
frj1983 said:
I'm wondering if the the DHS has credible evidence that Terrorists were plotting against Amtrak?? If I were a terrorist, I'd say Amtrak was small potatoes, I'd aim for Commuter railroads and Subway Systems that carry many more people.
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I don't necessarily agree. Amtrak has a bigger national and international image. It is the symbol of American rail transport that transcends NYC and other metro areas. Folks from around the world come to ride Amtrak, not NYC's subway.

That being said, an attack on the subway would definitely hurt many many more people.
 
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