Amtrak to Long Island

[DingDong]

Has Amtrak ever considered running any of its train that currently terminate at NYP (either Regionals or, if it would be possible, Empire Corridor trains) through to Hicksville on Long Island? I could see the following reasons to do this:

1. Lots of people live on Long Island; it's probably one of the most populated areas near the Northeast Corridor without Amtrak service (maybe Southern New Hampshire is close).

2. The tracks and stations are already there.

3. A number of trains already terminate at NYP; it would just be a matter of extending them.

4. Running the trains through to Hicksville with a stop at Jamaica, would allow direct access to JFK airport via Airtrain.

Problems are:

1. LIRR is busy and maybe has no slots at rush hour. (But (a) aren't they eventually adding another track and (b) it's at capacity at rush hour, but not the rest of the day)

2. LIRR uses third rail, not overhead catenary. (But doesn't Amtrak have some engines compatible with third rail? Or could they maybe leave a diesel engine on a Virginia train and run that through to Long Island? There must be some solution, even if it is buying a few new locomotives).

3. LIRR already serves Long Island pretty well with a connection to Amtrak at NYP. (This is true, but I bet the transfer from one system to another at NYP really keeps a lot of people off the rails entirely. Amtrak should at least consider through ticketing on LIRR trains if through running their own doesn't work.)

Thoughts? Would it be possible to turn Empire Corridor trains at NYP to run through to Long Island?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I assume since Amtrak can't compete against MetroNorth, it can't compete against LIRR either.

 

[DingDong]

I assume since Amtrak can't compete against MetroNorth, it can't compete against LIRR either.

Not totally sure I follow what you are saying, but taking someone from Albany to Jamaica is no more competing with LIRR than taking someone from New Haven to Philadelphia is competing with Metro North. And in any case, you can buy a ticket from New Haven to New York Penn on Amtrak.

 

[eagle628]

I assume since Amtrak can't compete against MetroNorth, it can't compete against LIRR either.

Can't as in isn't competative, or can't as in is prohibited by law?

 

[benjibear]

Why can't Amtrak do something like they do with Atlantic City. You can buy tickets for Atlantic City on NJ Transit via Amtrak. Maybe this shouldn't be done for parallel lines, but just think a National Train System where you can buy tickets to places not just served by Amtrak but other commuter railroads. It would have to help the railorad indistry on a whole. Maybe not though.

 

[Train2104]

I assume since Amtrak can't compete against MetroNorth, it can't compete against LIRR either.

Can't as in isn't competative, or can't as in is prohibited by law?

IIRC, the law says that a private corporation cannot compete against a public authority or vice versa. Don't know which one Amtrak falls into.

As for LIRR, Amtrak should offer through ticketing to the Hamptons like it does for Atlantic City. But does anyone know why the Atlantic City Line intermediate stations are through ticketed too?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Amtrak is an Interstate carrier or intercity carrier.

It has no business on Long Island

 

[AlanB]

As for LIRR, Amtrak should offer through ticketing to the Hamptons like it does for Atlantic City. But does anyone know why the Atlantic City Line intermediate stations are through ticketed too?

Amtrak restored the line to Atlantic City for service and initially ran trains to AC after the work was done. Amtrak later decided that they weren't getting enough passenger traffic to justify things, so they turned the service over to New Jersey Transit. One of the "conditions" if you will was that they'd still allow Amtrak to sell connecting tickets to that service.

 

[AlanB]

Has Amtrak ever considered running any of its train that currently terminate at NYP (either Regionals or, if it would be possible, Empire Corridor trains) through to Hicksville on Long Island? I could see the following reasons to do this:

1. Lots of people live on Long Island; it's probably one of the most populated areas near the Northeast Corridor without Amtrak service (maybe Southern New Hampshire is close).

2. The tracks and stations are already there.

3. A number of trains already terminate at NYP; it would just be a matter of extending them.

4. Running the trains through to Hicksville with a stop at Jamaica, would allow direct access to JFK airport via Airtrain.

Problems are:

1. LIRR is busy and maybe has no slots at rush hour. (But (a) aren't they eventually adding another track and (b) it's at capacity at rush hour, but not the rest of the day)

2. LIRR uses third rail, not overhead catenary. (But doesn't Amtrak have some engines compatible with third rail? Or could they maybe leave a diesel engine on a Virginia train and run that through to Long Island? There must be some solution, even if it is buying a few new locomotives).

3. LIRR already serves Long Island pretty well with a connection to Amtrak at NYP. (This is true, but I bet the transfer from one system to another at NYP really keeps a lot of people off the rails entirely. Amtrak should at least consider through ticketing on LIRR trains if through running their own doesn't work.)

Thoughts? Would it be possible to turn Empire Corridor trains at NYP to run through to Long Island?

Could Amtrak do it? Sure. But there is no reason why they'd want to do it. It won't justify enough ridership, it will cost them more to establish services in Hicksville to clean and turn the train, refuel it, it's just not practical. And frankly I don't think that too many people really mind the switch. Yes, I know that people don't really like transfers in general, but then if you live in the NY area I think that you're a bit more used to it.

As for running an Empire Corridor train through to LI, currently it cannot easily be done. Amtrak does have some third rail equipped locomotives, but they don't really have enough of them for such a service. And they don't really want to put more miles on them than they have to, since at least right now no one is building a suitable replacement.

 

[fairviewroad]

Amtrak is an Interstate carrier or intercity carrier.

It has no business on Long Island

Why? Are there portions of the United States that are acceptable for Amtrak to serve but Long Island isn't one of them? I don't think Amtrak would offer a LIRR-style commuter service. But to offer the people there some sort of premium service, or connectivity to the rest of Amtrak's national system, would certainly make sense. There are lots of places where Amtrak operates in commuter-railroad territory...I'm not clear why Long Island should be any different. Yes, there are probably logistical reasons why this would be impractical. But to say they have "no business" being there makes no sense.

 

[AlanB]

I assume since Amtrak can't compete against MetroNorth, it can't compete against LIRR either.

Can't as in isn't competative, or can't as in is prohibited by law?

IIRC, the law says that a private corporation cannot compete against a public authority or vice versa. Don't know which one Amtrak falls into.

I'm not aware of any such law. Amtrak does have certain agreements in some places, like on the Metro North Hudson line, where they won't sell a ticket between MN stations. So you can't for example go from Poughkeepsie to Croton Harmon or say Yonkers. But you can buy a ticket from Yonkers to NYP or even Albany.

On the other hand one can buy a ticket from New Haven to Stamford or New Rochelle or even Bridgeport. One will pay more for it, than if they rode MN, but you can still buy the ticket. Same with NJT, you can buy tickets between Newark and Trenton if you want; again you'll pay a premium for that ride. Out in Chicago you can buy a ticket from Chicago to Glenview and vice-versa, that's METRA territory.

 

[Joeker]

When the Metroliners (the predecesssor to Acela) first began they only ran between NYP and Washington. At some point during the early 1970's one or two were extended to New Haven which opened up the opportunity for the New Haven district passengers to have a one seat ride on the then new and fast metroloners which was at that time as far as the caternary extended.

Now I know, the LIRR is third rail operation, and would require a rebirth of the dual powered locomotive which the old New Haven at one time and early Amtrak had on its roster, but think of the marketing potential of a one seat ride from say Ronkonkoma or Babylon or even Port Wshington to capture the North shore and South Shore Long Island commuters who commute to Philadelphia or Washington.

 

[Donctor]

Operating something like this wouldn't make sense given the service that currently exists.

 

[Ocala Mike]

There was, of course, a precedent for this in pre-Amtrak days called the Sunrise Special (1922–1942) which ran from Pittsburgh to Montauk via Penn Station, New York. Joint PRR and LIRR train that operated during the summer. Trains ran eastbound on Fridays and westbound Mondays. During 1926 summer season trains were run daily. After 1932 there was an additional eastbound trip on Thursdays. Complete first class train from 1932 to 1937.

Of course, PRR owned the LIRR back then.

Ocala Mike

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

My recollection is that the third rail is not compatible between the Amtrak P32ACDM fleet and that which runs on Long Island.

That would be one of a good number of reasons not to extend the route.

The trains that currently terminate in New York get serviced in Sunnyside. If you extend the route, where do the trains get serviced?

 

[DingDong]

Now I know, the LIRR is third rail operation

But aren't Empire Corridor trains dual-mode ones capable of running on third rail? Is it a different kind of third rail?

Given that the state capital for Long Island is Albany, I would imagine there would be a travel market between Albany and Long Island. Additionally, a one-seat ride for all the Hudson Valley south of Albany to Jamaica and its connection to JFK would surely have significant demand, no?

 

[afigg]

Why can't Amtrak do something like they do with Atlantic City. You can buy tickets for Atlantic City on NJ Transit via Amtrak. Maybe this shouldn't be done for parallel lines, but just think a National Train System where you can buy tickets to places not just served by Amtrak but other commuter railroads. It would have to help the railorad indistry on a whole. Maybe not though.

It is not exactly that difficult to buy tickets for LIRR at NYP. It is a commuter train system, no reservations needed. Just walk up to the ticket machine and buy a ticket. For intercity transportation, we could use more integration or sharing in buying tickets, but for commuter trains I don't see much benefit to the idea.

 

[afigg]

There was, of course, a precedent for this in pre-Amtrak days called the Sunrise Special (1922–1942) which ran from Pittsburgh to Montauk via Penn Station, New York. Joint PRR and LIRR train that operated during the summer. Trains ran eastbound on Fridays and westbound Mondays. During 1926 summer season trains were run daily. After 1932 there was an additional eastbound trip on Thursdays. Complete first class train from 1932 to 1937.

Of course, PRR owned the LIRR back then.

Did that train require an engine change in NYP or at Jamaica Station?

Probably totally impractical, but how about a Montauk to NYP to Albany to Niagara Falls train? Call it the State of New York? State supported train of course. The two types of 3rd rail and diesel mix of operations would be, umm, interesting.

Edit: or the Empire State Cannonball (with a bar car of course).

 

[MattW]

My recollection is that the third rail is not compatible between the Amtrak P32ACDM fleet and that which runs on Long Island.

That would be one of a good number of reasons not to extend the route.

The trains that currently terminate in New York get serviced in Sunnyside. If you extend the route, where do the trains get serviced?

Actually, it's the other way around, Amtrak P32s aren't compatible with Metro North third rail. Don't forget that LIRR operates into Penn Station so they kind of have to be compatible

Why can't Amtrak do something like they do with Atlantic City. You can buy tickets for Atlantic City on NJ Transit via Amtrak. Maybe this shouldn't be done for parallel lines, but just think a National Train System where you can buy tickets to places not just served by Amtrak but other commuter railroads. It would have to help the railorad indistry on a whole. Maybe not though.

It is not exactly that difficult to buy tickets for LIRR at NYP. It is a commuter train system, no reservations needed. Just walk up to the ticket machine and buy a ticket. For intercity transportation, we could use more integration or sharing in buying tickets, but for commuter trains I don't see much benefit to the idea.

I can easily see the benefit. Most people's final destination isn't the downtown intercity rail station, nor probably one of the outlying commuter stations if there's even a suburban Amtrak stop. If my final destination is perhaps Edgebrook, Illinois after coming in on the Capitol Limited, I then have to go to the METRA ticket desk and buy a new ticket for the next METRA that direction rather than head straight for the train maybe after collecting my luggage. Especially if I'm not familiar with the Chicago Union Station layout, this could be more confusing and stressful than simply having all my tickets on one reservation and mailed out to me at once, or picked up at the departure station at once.

As to the general discussion. Just based on some quick and dirty calculations with the LIRR timetable, even if Amtrak ran directly to Montauk from NYP, you'd save less than an hour vs making the transfers; and as the distance from NYP decreases, the time savings would decrease vs. just transferring to LIRR.

 

[DingDong]

Why can't Amtrak do something like they do with Atlantic City. You can buy tickets for Atlantic City on NJ Transit via Amtrak. Maybe this shouldn't be done for parallel lines, but just think a National Train System where you can buy tickets to places not just served by Amtrak but other commuter railroads. It would have to help the railorad indistry on a whole. Maybe not though.

It is not exactly that difficult to buy tickets for LIRR at NYP. It is a commuter train system, no reservations needed. Just walk up to the ticket machine and buy a ticket. For intercity transportation, we could use more integration or sharing in buying tickets, but for commuter trains I don't see much benefit to the idea.

I see large benefits. Imagine I live in Danbury and want to go to Philadelphia (or vice versa). Now, I'm likely to drive to Stamford and just take Amtrak directly, or maybe just drive the whole way. It takes work to figure out what Metro North train you want to leave on, where you should make a connection, how much time you should give yourself etc. etc. I know people on this forum probably know that you connect at Stamford and you would probably enjoy comparing the MNRR schedule to the Amtrak one to figure out what two trains go together. But most people aren't railfans. It would mean a lot, I should think, if the average person could go to amtrak.com, put in Danbury and Philadelphia and have the computer do all the thinking for him/her.

 

[Ocala Mike]

afigg: Here's a great link for the Sunrise Special:

http://arrts-arrchives.com/sunrisespl.html

It appears that a PRR DD-1 brought the train through the East River tunnel, and a switch to a G-5S was made at "H" Tower.

Ocala Mike

 

[jis]

Did that train require an engine change in NYP or at Jamaica Station?

Probably totally impractical, but how about a Montauk to NYP to Albany to Niagara Falls train? Call it the State of New York? State supported train of course. The two types of 3rd rail and diesel mix of operations would be, umm, interesting.

Edit: or the Empire State Cannonball (with a bar car of course).

I suspect it would have come in using Steam to Jamaica or even Harold and would have a third rail electric substituted there, which in turn would be taken off at the other H - Hudson tower and replaced by a Pennsy steam, if it was run before through electrification on the Pennsy. Post electrification it would probably have got a Pennsy electric at Harold, and the other change would have been at Philly or Harrisburg depending on whether it took the Pittsburgh Subway at Zoo or not.

If your proposed Empire State Cannonball comes into existence it will probably use a single engine at least Montauk to Albany, possibly a P32ACDM. Two different types of third rail is a non-issues since the ACDMs have retractable shoes. The other possibility would be an ALP45DP all the way - no third rail involved.

afigg: Here's a great link for the Sunrise Special:

http://arrts-arrchives.com/sunrisespl.html

It appears that a PRR DD-1 brought the train through the East River tunnel, and a switch to a G-5S was made at "H" Tower.

Ah yes! That "H" is what is known as Harold Interlocking today. If anyone proposes an engine change there today they will summarily be sent off to an insane asylum in short order.

As has been mentioned by afigg, per PRIIA Section 209, such a train would need to be funded by New York State, so it is not really in Amtrak's control. If New York State decides to run such a train I am sure Amtrak will be happy to do so as long as all costs are covered and deficits accounted for by an appropriate grant from NYS. I can almost bet that there is next to zero chance of this happening anytime soon since there are many more pressing passenger rail items in NYS that need financial attention before this luxury. Frankly the first order of business in NYS is keeping the Empire Corridor running between NYP and NFL!

Also keep in mind that the only really active passenger rail advocacy group in NYS is centered around upgrading the Empire Corridor, and has only token presence downstate. So it is not like there is any significant champion for this sort of an idea in the advocacy community either. Well of course there is the RRWG, but then they would rather have everything run through New York Penn with nothing terminating there, and that ain't gonna happen either.

 

[Jamie]

The P32s that Amtrak runs on the Empire corridor are compatible with the LIRR, they just extend the LIRR 3rd rail into the Empire Connection tunnel. It is not compatible with Metro North 3rd Rail.

That being said, LIRR does not have the capacity for more trains. They are investigating adding a 3rd track on the mainline in Nassau County, but it is going to be pretty expensive, and involve closing road crossings or making them into bridges or tunnels.

 

[afigg]

The P32s that Amtrak runs on the Empire corridor are compatible with the LIRR, they just extend the LIRR 3rd rail into the Empire Connection tunnel. It is not compatible with Metro North 3rd Rail.

That being said, LIRR does not have the capacity for more trains. They are investigating adding a 3rd track on the mainline in Nassau County, but it is going to be pretty expensive, and involve closing road crossings or making them into bridges or tunnels.

The Empire State Cannonball would be a once a day train, so it would not present that serious a capacity issue to LIRR, on the western end of the island anyway. But the probability of such a through train service is pretty close to zero.

I wonder if history had been a little different and LIRR and New York Central had chosen compatible 3rd rail systems, if MTA would have pushed for a scheduled through train service from LIRR up the Hudson Line, once the Empire connector tunnel and tracks were in place. May see that someday if MNRR extends service to NYP from the Hudson Line after the East Side Access project is completed.

 

[jis]

Incidentally, MNRR has developed a dual shoe that works on both types of third rail. They have been testing it over the last six months or so. Dutch can give more details if he so chooses.