Just do away with all Passenger rail service that's not on dedicated track. Or, find a way to electronically integrate a monitoring/warning system, that would prevent all of these accidents.
Amtrak Train 91-CSX collision in SC (2/4/18)/Liability issues
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west point
Conductor
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2015
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- 2,304
Wonder if there are any HOS problems with the CSX freight crew ?
Wow, I didn't know that. Absolutely ridiculous...no...despicable really. Congress really needs to overturn that 1997 law, but of course they won't because of lobbying by the multi-billion-dollar freight companies. It would be great if it was like car crashes: the one at fault pays for nearly everything.
Based on Anderson's strong reaction to this crash, I truly hope he'll protect Amtrak from having to pay for it, which at least from what he has said, is CSX's fault. Of course we need to wait for the preliminary and final reports from the NTSB, though.
Tight lock couplers are a good thing. Without them all the cars might have turned sideways and rolled. Deformation of the structure of the cafe car absorbed a lot of energy and probably minimized injuries in the trailing cars. Aside from the cafe car, the Budd structure appears to have held up well under the circumstances. What the interiors of those cars are like, we can't tell from photos. As to whether there was a defect in the cafe car structure that caused it to buckle, we will have to see whether the NTSB looks into that.
According to Amtrak's Track A Train, 92(4) did not take the expected Dillon-Hamlet detour and instead is running on the CSX A-line through central NC. Given that passengers in Cary and Raleigh can take 80 which runs on about the same schedule, the only folks impacted by not running Dillon-Hamlet are passengers at Hamlet and Southern Pines, both of which are lightly patronized stations.
FWIW, Dillon-Hamlet is signaled and good for 50 mph.
According to Amtrak's Track A Train, 92(4) did not take the expected Dillon-Hamlet detour and instead is running on the CSX A-line through central NC. Given that passengers in Cary and Raleigh can take 80 which runs on about the same schedule, the only folks impacted by not running Dillon-Hamlet are passengers at Hamlet and Southern Pines, both of which are lightly patronized stations.
FWIW, Dillon-Hamlet is signaled and good for 50 mph.
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Green Maned Lion
Conductor
Seaboard, I understand how you feel. When we look at rail collisions, we see 2 dead and it is a statistic. I can only see it as a statistic, too. I didnt know them, and the human heart would never survive if it mourned every tragic loss in plane crashes, train crashes, car crashes, and good men like my neighbor (who I mourned because I knew him) who tragically died from a heart attack leaving three kids and an entirely unfit mother.
That above is a horrible tragedy that has left me sick for years, and you didnt even know about it. Hearing about this, I am sure you are going to feel bad about it; but you will not be affected by it the way you feel about your friends; nor should you.
So mourn them; you knew them as good men. I feel sorry that they died. I cant mourn them; I didnt know them. Since that part is what it is, I will also lament the loss of some equipment on a system that is already short of it, and a reality that while cars can be replaced, they wont be for years. In fact, and excuse my coldness, but mechanically, you cant replace a human soul, but training a new conductor and engineer is actually easier than replacing a car.
It is not unreasonable for me as a transit advocate (retired) to consider all of those practical things. That doesnt mean I dont see or understand the human tragedy; it means that saying Im sorry Amtrak lost two good men, and meaning it, is all I can do about it.
That above is a horrible tragedy that has left me sick for years, and you didnt even know about it. Hearing about this, I am sure you are going to feel bad about it; but you will not be affected by it the way you feel about your friends; nor should you.
So mourn them; you knew them as good men. I feel sorry that they died. I cant mourn them; I didnt know them. Since that part is what it is, I will also lament the loss of some equipment on a system that is already short of it, and a reality that while cars can be replaced, they wont be for years. In fact, and excuse my coldness, but mechanically, you cant replace a human soul, but training a new conductor and engineer is actually easier than replacing a car.
It is not unreasonable for me as a transit advocate (retired) to consider all of those practical things. That doesnt mean I dont see or understand the human tragedy; it means that saying Im sorry Amtrak lost two good men, and meaning it, is all I can do about it.
greatcats
Conductor
If the crew assignment map that I have is correct, the crew of 91 would operate between Hamlet, NC and Jacksonville, FL, a trip scheduled to take over 7 hours. This should require 2 engineers, Plus it is a middle of the night trip. Mr. Cella, one of the deceased, has been mentioned as the Conductor. It is indeed possible that he was riding the engine, or has he been mislabeled as the second engineer? If he was the Conductor, What is the status of the second engineer? Rest In Peace, gentlemen.
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City of Miami
Conductor
My understanding is that per the original Amtrak/Class II agreement, the private RR company will incur no liability whatsoever, no matter the circumstances, for any damage involving an Amtrak train. As twisted as it may sound I can understand the RR point of view. Simply, if the Amtrak train were not there, there would be no accident/damage for the RR to incur.
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greatcats
Conductor
Another thought is that a second engineer may not have been available, and the Conductor was instructed to ride the engine. Or, was he in that lounge car that was twisted in half, a really creepy sight?
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VentureForth
Conductor
In looking at the satellite image of the scene (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9088977,-81.0669683,445a,35y,357h,1.19t/data=!3m1!1e3), it looks like the switch was a couple hundred feet before the location of the lead CSX locomotive. I only bring this up because the NTSB chairman said in his presser that the train would have surely derailed going over that switch at 59 MPH. It seems as though the train took the switch well (though no telling how the whole train would have fared at full speed).
Also curious as to whether the highway bridge (US-321) was damaged. I've been on that bridge.
The biggest complaint about the NTSB's presser was when he said that PTC would have prevented the accident. It's been mentioned in here already - but IF the system was down for any sort of maintenance, would PTC be able to recognize a switch out of place? This is the sort of hip-shooting I thought the NTSB was trained not to do. But it was mentioned, thus will be reported on.
As to the two in the cab, it sounded like it was the conductor and a single engineer. I don't think the media botched that up. In this case, because they were in dark territory, it sounds like SOP is that the conductor confirms the track warrants from the cab. Note that I've seen crew changes occur in Savannah.
I'm sad to learn that the engineer, Michael Kempf, was a fellow Savannahian.
Also curious as to whether the highway bridge (US-321) was damaged. I've been on that bridge.
The biggest complaint about the NTSB's presser was when he said that PTC would have prevented the accident. It's been mentioned in here already - but IF the system was down for any sort of maintenance, would PTC be able to recognize a switch out of place? This is the sort of hip-shooting I thought the NTSB was trained not to do. But it was mentioned, thus will be reported on.
As to the two in the cab, it sounded like it was the conductor and a single engineer. I don't think the media botched that up. In this case, because they were in dark territory, it sounds like SOP is that the conductor confirms the track warrants from the cab. Note that I've seen crew changes occur in Savannah.
I'm sad to learn that the engineer, Michael Kempf, was a fellow Savannahian.
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Green Maned Lion
Conductor
If the PTC was operating it wouldnt have happened. Old Yiddish proverb: If my grandmother had ****s shed be my grandfather.
neroden
Conductor
The so-called indemnity agreements are against public poliicy, as the judge ruled in the Chase, Maryland case. Hopefully Anderson will make a very clear case in the media for changing the law which allows CSX to get away scot-free for criminal negligence. It seems like he's ready to take a pretty hard line...
Raleigh, Cary, Hamlet (and presumably Southern pines) passengers were bused to suitable stations on the A-lIne to/from 91/92. Passengers from Camden through Denmark are being bused anyway.
Thirdrail had already informed us that 91(4) would run all the way on the A-Line.
Both fatalities were in the engine.
Star normally runs with a single engine, as it was this day too, and I am told that the JAX - Hamlet district is long enough to require two Engineers in the cab. I am not sure exactly what the districts are, but if it is indeed JAX - Hamlet then it stands to reason that there would be two in the cab.
There was no third person in the cab, so presumably the second Engineer has been mislabeled as a Conductor in the media and press reports.
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KmH
Conductor
https://nypost.com/2...wrong-position/
It is a CSX switch, not an Amtrak switch.
Feds investigating why CSX switch was set in wrong position
It is a CSX switch, not an Amtrak switch.
Feds investigating why CSX switch was set in wrong position
railiner
Conductor
How many accident's have Amfleet cars been in, in their 40+ years of service? I do not recall them ever breaking in this manner....
The problem may be in the FRA increasing the strength requirements even more than they are now, thus making it even harder to find supplier's of new equipment in the future....
KnightRail
Lead Service Attendant
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2015
- Messages
- 486
Pause that footage when it shows what was the cafe car. If there is something positive about the outcome, it is that by some miracle that most of the energy was absorbed by car with the least occupants at the time. Dont want to imagine if a sleeper or coach absorbed the energy that the cafe did.
VentureForth
Conductor
Wonder if CSX employees will blame the "Harrison Cuts".
The other thing that happened is that the anti-climber in front of the P42 did not work and it climbed over and then diverted to the side of the CSX unit, thus dissipating an enormous amount of energy. If the anti-climber had worked and the engine had come to dead stop nose to nose with the CSX unit, then the rest of the train would have had to dissipate that energy possibly leading to significant additional casualties.
Or CSX try to blame it on sabotage.
The possibilities of conspiracy theories are endless....
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railiner
Conductor
One other thought comes to mind....supposing that locomotives were operated "long hood forward", in the manner that the former Norfolk and Western Railway practiced....
could that have saved the crew?
That practice probably requires two crewmember's in the cab for full visibility, so not likely to happen again....
could that have saved the crew?
That practice probably requires two crewmember's in the cab for full visibility, so not likely to happen again....
MikefromCrete
Conductor
As I understand it, because the signal system down and the train was running under train orders, the conductor was in the cab to copy the orders from the dispatcher. If he was back in the train, the engineer would have to stop the train in order to copy the orders. The Amtrak employees were being efficient. It appears the CSX employees were being criminally negligent.
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Devil's Advocate
Sarcastic Misanthrope
So far as I am aware there is nothing Anderson can do to prevent Amtrak from having to pay for CSX's legal liabilities.
These kinds of indemnity agreements are perfectly reasonable between networks of similar size and liability risk. These kinds of agreements make absolutely no moral or ethical sense between freight railroads (who collectively represent roughly 95% of the passenger network miles but less than 1% of passenger liability) and Amtrak (representing roughly 5% of passenger network miles but greater than 99% of passenger liability).
The more Amtrak pushes to change how the indemnity agreements are handled the more of a lobbying target they paint on their back. If a large freight railroad doesn't like how liability disputes will be handled in the future they can simply overcharge Amtrak to prevent them from operating on their network at the completion of the current contract. Amtrak can fight this decision in court but any of the class one railroads can simply slow walk the court case until Amtrak has been bled dry.
The Graniteville SC freight incident is eerily similar, with a switch left misaligned to a siding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graniteville,_South_Carolina,_train_crash
There will be an NTSB Press Conference at 4pm today (2/5/18)
