Are Amtrak Sleeper Fares Going up Sharply?

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Just checked on a possible Chicago trip for us next year in May/June 2012. I could only check prices as far as March but I noticed that the low bucket prices for sleepers have risen considerably; on the order of 30%. Anyone else experiencing these types of price increases, this far out? I can't imagine that Amtrak has raised prices this much but who knows?
 
I've found when I check 11 months out the prices appear to be high bucket. I think the travel agencies have taken their blocks, therefore making the price escalate. when I check in the 6 month out range it seems prices have dropped. just my 2 cents. I could be wrong :rolleyes:
 
With AMTRAK losing money for as long as they have, could it be they might be trying to close some of that gap?

EDIT: in another topic about sleeper floorplans, there is an image of a 1981 timetable, listing the one-way adult fare STL-DAL as $83.00. Using the inflation calculator, that would mean the fare today would be $196.48. In actually, AMTRAK is charging $92.00

WHAT A DEAL. 30-years later and the fare in only $9.00 higher.
 
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Didn't Hadley post a while ago that some low bucket sleeper fares have been eliminated on some routes? Or am I imagining that?
 
With AMTRAK losing money for as long as they have, could it be they might be trying to close some of that gap?

EDIT: in another topic about sleeper floorplans, there is an image of a 1981 timetable, listing the one-way adult fare STL-DAL as $83.00. Using the inflation calculator, that would mean the fare today would be $196.48. In actually, AMTRAK is charging $92.00

WHAT A DEAL. 30-years later and the fare in only $9.00 higher.
The dollar lost over half it's value in 30 years? :eek:

Of course I know why the sleeper fares are higher - The Federal Reserve and their inflation of the money supply! :lol: :giggle:
 
I found some low buckets late February of 2012, really low! Checking 2 months ago, the price for PDX-NYP was 1200.00 for sleepers. In comparison, I had to book on Delta BC on May 22 for 650.00 PDX-JFK. People sometimes comment that the plane is cheaper than the train and sometimes they are right. Could go coach, but that is a long 3 days and sleep in coach is never the same. I can not sleep on the LSL.

Sleepers seem to be sold out far in advance on coast to coast trains. I am unable to book that far ahead. There is nothing wrong with that price. 550.00 - 600.00 roomettes seem to be the norm now days. Whatever the market will bare works. Amtrak seems to be doing nicely for the dates checked. Think of what more capacity on cross country routes could yield. What if, one more cross country train was available, what if another sleeper were added to all 3 trains from Chicago to the coast, or two sleepers. Select Administrations saw no value in Amtrak transportation, but, these numbers do not lie.

Now, if one is going to San Antonio, the Sunset Limited is the best fare going. LAX-SAS is 170 plus 433 for the sleeper. Maybe everyone from LAX should vacation in San Antonio. Dine at Boudros on the River Walk! Ya know, they make Guacamole on a cart at your tableside, it is to die for! Best burger, fries and Margarita is Chris Madrids. They use Conmemorativo Tequila. There is some free PR for San Antonio! It is a great city for food and entertainment

So, I would really credit Amtrak for trying to make money as they can, since they can. The passenger (us) will do what is best for us.They have been in the dumpers for so long and fuel might come down, if they can get it, I say do it.
 
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Amtrak's revenue management team is being far more pro-active and efficient these days. I'm not sure if they aren't holding back on the low buckets as the inventory intially gets added to ARROW, since for years the rule has been book early. I think that they're now catching people off guard if you will, by putting up higher buckets initially, then dropping things back after a month or two.

Remember, the bucket system isn't fixed. It's dynamic and they can reallocate how many rooms are in a given bucket at anytime.
 
People sometimes comment that the plane is cheaper than the train and sometimes they are right. Could go coach, but that is a long 3 days and sleep in coach is never the same. I can not sleep on the LSL.
In the last few years that I've returned to travel by Amtrak I cannot remember a single sleeper ticket that was substantially cheaper than flying. Not one. Unfortunately I can think of several sleeper tickets that were substantially more expensive than flying.

Sleepers seem to be sold out far in advance on coast to coast trains.
I'm not sure anybody can say anything on Amtrak is truly "sold out" when they don't impose any fees for reserving rooms or penalties for canceling reservations or in some cases don't even demand up-front payment. Their system is just too fluid for us (or them) to know what has truly been sold at any time prior to the last week before departure.

There is nothing wrong with that price. 550.00 - 600.00 roomettes seem to be the norm now days. Whatever the market will bare works.
I just wonder who exactly is paying these prices if even the Amtrak fanatics are finding themselves resorting to other methods of travel. Sure, if you're smart you'll accrue points and never pay Amtrak's asking price, but somebody apparently is. How much more room does Amtrak have to raise rates before they start bumping into private varnish territory?

Maybe everyone from LAX should vacation in San Antonio. Dine at Boudros on the River Walk! Ya know, they make Guacamole on a cart at your tableside, it is to die for! Best burger, fries and Margarita is Chris Madrids. They use Conmemorativo Tequila. There is some free PR for San Antonio! It is a great city for food and entertainment.
I rarely visit the chain-infested Paseo del Rio but I do sometimes stop by the Landing for a little jazz. Fresh guacamole is pretty common here in SA, so if that's your thing you'll be set at most any mid-sized or larger Mexican restaurant. Chris Madrid's is where the wonderful Macho Cheddar Cheesy burger is made. Unfortunately they seem to be overcooking their patties of late so if you go be sure to request a bit less grill time for yours. Even though it may not be truly high-end Sauza Conmemorativo is by far my favorite tequila. Mix it with some fresh lime juice and some Cointreau and you have the best margarita known to man. If you don't like 'em dry like I do then add a splash of freshly squeezed orange juice.
 
Amtrak's revenue management team is being far more pro-active and efficient these days. I'm not sure if they aren't holding back on the low buckets as the inventory intially gets added to ARROW, since for years the rule has been book early. I think that they're now catching people off guard if you will, by putting up higher buckets initially, then dropping things back after a month or two.

Remember, the bucket system isn't fixed. It's dynamic and they can reallocate how many rooms are in a given bucket at anytime.
Considering that it is quite a regular practice among airlines to continuously adjust inventories so that fare cannot be predicted at any given point in time, I'd say Amtrak is just starting to follow the travel industry norms.
 
Dax,

Your point about Private Varnish territory isn't too far off the mark...I think a PV rental from NYP-CHI might run somewhere around $15,000 for the round trip. Scribbling that out, you're looking at $7,500 each way. Most PV sleepers have at least 10 accommodations...so $750 would be your break point. The LSL bedrooms have already breached this line on the high buckets.

The heart of the problem is that Amtrak has rammed into a hard capacity limit. Now, there's no way they're going to turn a profit on these trains without added capacity, particularly on the sleepers. But I'll refer back to my earlier remarks about seriously looking at a leasing deal to get around the lack of direct capital investment. Of course, we'll see if adding 25 sleepers to the mix on the single-level routes does anything for this problem...it may, it may not (and my bet is on the latter, for the record), but if it doesn't then Amtrak needs to look into getting creative to increase capacity on these parts of the system.
 
I believe that there should both be some cost benefit for the loyal Amtrak traveler who books early and for Amtrak as well.

There is always a pool of travelers (us included) that will always book early to get an affordable price on a sleeper. IMO, if you start fiddling around with the buckets such to the point that the people who book early as expected to pay the high bucket, you won't do as well.

Here is some speculation and the three possibilities that are being discussed:

1. The travel agencies are buying up ( reserving) the low bucket sleepers as soon as they become available. BTW, AAA is now another travel agency now doing Amtrak bookings. I wonder how many low bucket fare they reserve? Could AAA reservations be the culprit?

2. Amtrak has rearranged the bucket system completely to eliminate the early booking advantage.

3. Amtrak has decided to raise the sleeper prices 30% across the board by eliminating the lower bucket fares and hedging its bet that gasoline prices will shift a good many people to the rails.

Regardless of which of the above applies, Amtrak must be aware that the USA is in a very deep recession. The market may not bear as much of price increase as believed. Sleeper fares are already not cheap. When I pay $250-$400 extra for one night in a sleeper with two meals, thats my limit. That translates to a $350 to $550 ONE way fare. If the price escalates above this, then travel by car becomes the better option for us. We can then enjoy the benefits of the much larger government highway subsidy at a more economical price.
 
Regardless of which of the above applies, Amtrak must be aware that the USA is in a very deep recession. The market may not bear as much of price increase as believed. Sleeper fares are already not cheap. When I pay $250-$400 extra for one night in a sleeper with two meals, thats my limit. That translates to a $350 to $550 ONE way fare. If the price escalates above this, then travel by car becomes the better option for us. We can then enjoy the benefits of the much larger government highway subsidy at a more economical price.
And as I said above, Amtrak's revenue management team is being very pro-active. If they see that sleepers aren't selling at the higher prices, without regard to what's causing them, then they'll drop more rooms from a higher bucket into a lower bucket so that they will sell out before the train ever leaves the station.
 
Amtrak knows that there's a recession going on, but that's not stopping the market from bearing out extremely high prices. Assuming that you don't want to fly and that you want to travel from NYC to Orlando, you're looking at 18-19 hours in a car and over 1000 miles on the highway. Even NYC-Chicago is 13 hours and 800 miles. Both will likely involve an overnight somewhere...so you're looking at $150-175 in gas, $75-100 for a hotel, and perhaps $20/person in food. $300 for a single traveler to take that trip is steep, and I think it's fair to say that Amtrak can charge a slight "you're not driving" premium...so $350-400 each way would be perhaps the high end of what would make sense for a one-way fare.

Of course, with static capacity and increasing rail demand, Amtrak has to ration space (and arguably has a duty to maximize revenue). I'm honestly wondering, though, how many sleepers Amtrak could pack at $300-350 each way on the Florida route at peak season given where they're going with buckets.

One thing to remember: The airlines have a guaranteed number of seats sold on a lot of routes (major corporations buy up options on X number of seats on a given route for extended periods of time). Some major businesses might have had similar arrangements with some of the RRs, but I seriously doubt that anything like that exists between Amtrak and anyone today.
 
One thing to remember: The airlines have a guaranteed number of seats sold on a lot of routes (major corporations buy up options on X number of seats on a given route for extended periods of time). Some major businesses might have had similar arrangements with some of the RRs, but I seriously doubt that anything like that exists between Amtrak and anyone today.
Really? When I worked in the airlines, this was never a practice I encountered. Granted I worked for an LCC, not a legacy, but this is the first time I've ever heard of such a practice.

Somehow I don't think that corporations are purchasing tickets on airlines much different than they are on the Acela, but I could be wrong. What's the purpose of such "guaranteed purchases?"
 
Really? When I worked in the airlines, this was never a practice I encountered. Granted I worked for an LCC, not a legacy, but this is the first time I've ever heard of such a practice. Somehow I don't think that corporations are purchasing tickets on airlines much different than they are on the Acela, but I could be wrong. What's the purpose of such "guaranteed purchases?"
The purpose is to provide guaranteed passengers in exchange for lower fares. Businesses sometimes spend enormous amounts of money on flights. When you fly last minute and are only in town for a few hours you can get gouged by all sorts of punitive pricing schemes. Sometimes this is a necessary evil, but in cases where you can anticipate where and when your employees will be flying you can save money and protect against price hikes by entering into a contract with a major carrier. In some cases the contracts can also guarantee specific schedules and services between certain city pairs and can even include directives to the operations team to hold a contracted flight long enough for passengers from a contracted connecting flight to reach it (within reason). Toyota entered into such a contract with United Airlines when they built a truck plant here in San Antonio and their contract created an additional non-stop link from the West Coast that would probably not have existed otherwise. Anyone could buy available seats on that airplane but it was there first and foremost for the use of Toyota employees traveling between San Antonio and Japan. At the time this flight was created it was one of very few RJ's that included both FC and E+.
 
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Another sort of deal that huge corporations like the one I work for enters into with airlines is a Select Carrier Contract, wherein the corporation designates the chosen airline as one of their select carriers and preferentially directs company travelers to those carriers for two reasons:

1. The contract often specifies that the lowest commercially published fares will always be available to company travelers traveling on business with no inventory restrictions. The Amtrak equivalent would be that the lowest bucket fare would always be available as part of the contract without any inventory control

2. If certain thresholds are met by the company then it gets a percentage of the fares it payed plowed back to it as further volume discount. The Amtrak equivalent would be that if the total fares collected from contract travel passes some $$ threshold then some pre-specified percentage, usually of the order of 5% will be refunded to the company by Amtrak.

Naturally this creates a huge incentive for the company to direct its travelers to these airline through requirements of booking business trips through company designated travel agent in order to get reimbursement for them etc. And the designated airline effectively gets a guarantee of filling certain number of seats on well know routes that has a lot of company traffic. It also leads to interesting situations where you are actually prevented from using the lowest fare available on another carrier, but at the end of the day company ends up saving more than if the lowest fare had been taken.
 
Regardless of which of the above applies, Amtrak must be aware that the USA is in a very deep recession. The market may not bear as much of price increase as believed. Sleeper fares are already not cheap. When I pay $250-$400 extra for one night in a sleeper with two meals, thats my limit. That translates to a $350 to $550 ONE way fare. If the price escalates above this, then travel by car becomes the better option for us. We can then enjoy the benefits of the much larger government highway subsidy at a more economical price.
The US by definition is no longer in a recession, and we haven't been since late summer 2009.

Here again, I think you assume that your own ability to pay for a sleeper is what the general public can or cannot pay. Just because $400 is your maximum price that you would pay certainly does not mean that there are others out there that will not pay higher. Sure, sleeper prices have increased, but I have yet to observe any noticeable slow down in sleeper bookings. Trains still sell out, often times with their sleeper sections first. Is the $488 price for a roomette from NYP to CHI too much for you to pay? Maybe. But obviously it's not for others, since there's only one roomette left on the particular train I priced. Same goes for $898 to book a bedroom on the LSL. Expensive? Sure. Is there only one left on that particular day in June? You betcha.

I still think this comes down to whining. Poor little dlagrua can't get his cheap sleepers. It's supply and demand. There's only one train per day in most cases, sometimes fewer, with limited accommodations. Ridership is up by almost double digit amounts. How can you get mad at Amtrak charging more for its sleepers if they're still selling them? Amtrak is a business after all, and if sleepers are hot commodities that sell out regularly, what kind of business would not want to raise prices to reap the financial benefits?

Bottom line: if you want a sleeper, you better be prepared to fork out. Otherwise, Amtrak will gladly sell that room to another passenger who is willing and able to pay the price.

Amtrak's revenue management team is being far more pro-active and efficient these days.
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Really? When I worked in the airlines, this was never a practice I encountered. Granted I worked for an LCC, not a legacy, but this is the first time I've ever heard of such a practice. Somehow I don't think that corporations are purchasing tickets on airlines much different than they are on the Acela, but I could be wrong. What's the purpose of such "guaranteed purchases?"
The purpose is to provide guaranteed passengers in exchange for lower fares. Businesses sometimes spend enormous amounts of money on flights. When you fly last minute and are only in town for a few hours you can get gouged by all sorts of punitive pricing schemes. Sometimes this is a necessary evil, but in cases where you can anticipate where and when your employees will be flying you can save money and protect against price hikes by entering into a contract with a major carrier. In some cases the contracts can also guarantee specific schedules and services between certain city pairs and can even include directives to the operations team to hold a contracted flight long enough for passengers from a contracted connecting flight to reach it (within reason). Toyota entered into such a contract with United Airlines when they built a truck plant here in San Antonio and their contract created an additional non-stop link from the West Coast that would probably not have existed otherwise. Anyone could buy available seats on that airplane but it was there first and foremost for the use of Toyota employees traveling between San Antonio and Japan. At the time this flight was created it was one of very few RJ's that included both FC and E+.
Bayer used to do that with a basically chartered flight from Pittsburgh to Frankfurt on US Airways.
 
The US by definition is no longer in a recession, and we haven't been since late summer 2009.
Your so right. With 22.5% REAL UNEMPLOYMENT we are in a DEPRESSION and its getting far worse by the month. In the last 10 years alone 50,000 factories have closed their doors and moved their manufacturing to China putting 2,500,000 Americans out of work. The housing market is in the toilet, 3 or 4 college grads cannot get a job, gas is headed to $5 per gallon. No recession? Better guess again.

Here again, I think you assume that your own ability to pay for a sleeper is what the general public can or cannot pay. Just because $400 is your maximum price that you would pay certainly does not mean that there are others out there that will not pay higher. Sure, sleeper prices have increased, but I have yet to observe any noticeable slow down in sleeper bookings. Trains still sell out, often times with their sleeper sections first. Is the $488 price for a roomette from NYP to CHI too much for you to pay? Maybe. But obviously it's not for others, since there's only one roomette left on the particular train I priced. Same goes for $898 to book a bedroom on the LSL. Expensive? Sure. Is there only one left on that particular day in June? You betcha.

I still think this comes down to whining. Poor little dlagrua can't get his cheap sleepers. It's supply and demand. There's only one train per day in most cases, sometimes fewer, with limited accommodations. Ridership is up by almost double digit amounts. How can you get mad at Amtrak charging more for its sleepers if they're still selling them? Amtrak is a business after all, and if sleepers are hot commodities that sell out regularly, what kind of business would not want to raise prices to reap the financial benefits?

Bottom line: if you want a sleeper, you better be prepared to fork out. Otherwise, Amtrak will gladly sell that room to another passenger who is willing and able to pay the price.
I hardly consider the prices for sleeper fares discussed as "cheap". I can affford to pay more but there is a price point where its just not worth it. Will Amtrak still sell out the sleepers? On some trains like the Cardinal, LSL and CZ I would agree but on the last two trips that we've taken (AutoTrain and Capitol) there were roomettes and bedrooms to spare. On our Crescent trip early next month there are still roomettes available. That must indicate something. If your argument is that price is simply supply and demand, that is the conservative view. The corporations in the oil business use exactly the same argument to justify exhorbiatnt gasoline prices. Are you happy with that? As for ridership; my guess that most of the increase in ridership will come from the regional trains not on the LD routes

BTW, I don't have to whine about anything. Whimps whine, men of action never do BTW, I don't have to whine about anything. Whimps whine, men of action never do.
 
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Market pricing is sort of like democracy. It is a darned lousy system. But most others seem to be even lousier, because we seldom have any idea what the unintended consequences of significant controls are going to be. Still, being human we try various things anyway, and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail.

As long as "we the people" through our most able (sic) representatives have instructed Amtrak to maximize cost recovery, it is incumbent upon Amtrak management to do so the best they can. The consequence is what we see. If we can get our able representatives to change the mission, then we can legitimately blame Amtrak management should they fail to fulfill that new mission. But until then we are merely whistling in the wind, irrespective of whether we are whining or doing something else.
 
The US by definition is no longer in a recession, and we haven't been since late summer 2009.
Your so right. With 22.5% REAL UNEMPLOYMENT we are in a DEPRESSION and its getting far worse by the month. In the last 10 years alone 50,000 factories have closed their doors and moved their manufacturing to China putting 2,500,000 Americans out of work. The housing market is in the toilet, 3 or 4 college grads cannot get a job, gas is headed to $5 per gallon. No recession? Better guess again.
None of what you stated above is figured into the calculation for determining a recession. Until you can get your definitions of recession and depression right, you'll be incorrect. We are most decidedly not in a depression, and we haven't been in one since 1939. Only 25% of college grads get a job? I'd love to see a source on that, if you can even find one. I can tell you first hand that that's incorrect.

Nice job using a couple of internet articles that are months old to get a statistic that is not officially recognized, and one that frankly doesn't have much meaning either. The percentage that you quoted represents more underemployment than it does unemployment, and it historically has never dropped below about 11%. It sounds like you'll always be unhappy if you look at that statistic. Official unemployment for April stood at 9%, and represents a much more meaningful calculation than the one for "real unemployment" does.

I hardly consider the prices for sleeper fares discussed as "cheap". I can affford to pay more but there is a price point where its just not worth it. Will Amtrak still sell out the sleepers? On some trains like the Cardinal, LSL and CZ I would agree but on the last two trips that we've taken (AutoTrain and Capitol) there were roomettes and bedrooms to spare. On our Crescent trip early next month there are still roomettes available. That must indicate something. If your argument is that price is simply supply and demand, that is the conservative view. The corporations in the oil business use exactly the same argument to justify exhorbiatnt gasoline prices. Are you happy with that? As for ridership; my guess that most of the increase in ridership will come from the regional trains not on the LD routes
Just because there are rooms available doesn't mean that the pricing strategy is a failure. It is possible that Amtrak brought in more revenue by selling those filled rooms at the prices they did rather than pricing them at a much lower price and filling them. 10 rooms sold at $300 will generate less revenue than 8 rooms at $400, for example. Obviously you don't understand what drives oil prices, either. The LD trains are yielding greater increases in ridership than the regionals.
 
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People sometimes comment that the plane is cheaper than the train and sometimes they are right. Could go coach, but that is a long 3 days and sleep in coach is never the same. I can not sleep on the LSL.
In the last few years that I've returned to travel by Amtrak I cannot remember a single sleeper ticket that was substantially cheaper than flying. Not one. Unfortunately I can think of several sleeper tickets that were substantially more expensive than flying.
In all of history, has anyone considered flying part of the vacation? Remember these quotes:

Orville, to Wilbur "What? I have to be at Kitty Hawk two hours early to go through security? And They want how much per bag?"

Controller to Lindy: "I am sorry, Mr. Lindbergh but you must remain on the tarmac for 3 hours until the weather clears. If you return to the terminal for a break, you will be last in line for takeoff".

Neil Armstrong on arriving at the moon: "One small seat for man. One giant pain for mankind. I hated that flight to Canaveral from NY".

The sleeper IS part of the vacation - sometimes the best part.
 
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