Argentina & Chile rail, and a bit of Indian Subcontinent

[cirdan]

A population of just shy of 19.5 Million for the entire country (292,000 Sq. Mile) together with difficult terrain to build in, might have something to do with it. The population of the Delhi Urban Area is over 22 Million, and that of Mumbai a shade over 20 Million. California with an area of 164,000 Sq. Mile has a population of 39.24 Million, and it is not exactly crawling with railroads either, though it has quite a bit of it.

This might explain why no railroad was built in the first place, but this is not the case, as it was once possible to travel from one end of Chile to (almost) the other by train (albeit with a break of gauge). AFAIK most of this track is still in place and much of it is used by freight (Chile's economy is heavily dependent on mineral extraction, and much of this goes by train). So the additional investment needed to bring back a passenger service should not be that great.

In the case of Chile I guess the explanation is much the same as with Amtrak, as in insufficient political interest or sense of priority, combined with low density of population outside of the main metropolis areas.

P.S. I understand there are indeed murmurings going on in Chile about bringing back further sections of passenger operation, but I don't know how realistic these are or, if yes, what sort of timescale we are talking about.

 

[user 6862]

This might explain why no railroad was built in the first place, but this is not the case, as it was once possible to travel from one end of Chile to (almost) the other by train (albeit with a break of gauge). AFAIK most of this track is still in place and much of it is used by freight (Chile's economy is heavily dependent on mineral extraction, and much of this goes by train). So the additional investment needed to bring back a passenger service should not be that great.

In the case of Chile I guess the explanation is much the same as with Amtrak, as in insufficient political interest or sense of priority, combined with low density of population outside of the main metropolis areas.

P.S. I understand there are indeed murmurings going on in Chile about bringing back further sections of passenger operation, but I don't know how realistic these are or, if yes, what sort of timescale we are talking about.

Yes, a number of factors may be at play in Chile as with Amtrak.

I don't know enough about other continents but a comprhensive rail system here in Europe was and to some extent still is a social provision too, ie subsidised to some degree by the state for the benefit of all the population.
A new factor may be environmental concerns but that may not be a major factor everywhere currently.

 

[cirdan]

I don't know enough about other continents but a comprhensive rail system here in Europe was and to some extent still is a social provision too, ie subsidised to some degree by the state for the benefit of all the population.

I understand that in much of Latin America, rail systems were once also subsidized for social reasons. But unlike Europe, this was understood to mean that they should be run in a minimalistic way for the benefit of the poorer segments of the population who typically had no other choice. Add in that many of the countries in the region hobbled from one economic crisis to the next, not to mention political instabilities or military dictatorships, and this was followed by privatization of formerly state owned rail lines. There was thus often little real ability or will to invest. The systems gradually deteriorated while privately run bus companies cherry picked away passengers on the best routes often by being both faster and more comfortable than the train.

The ultimate result was that after many decades of neglect and retrenchment, some countries have only a bare handful of operational routes left while others are completely without passenger rail.

That said, things have got more positive over recent years with the rate of decline clearly slowing, while many countries have started actively looking at passenger rail again, often backed by Chinese capital and equipment. I understand several commuter systems are also being developed.

 

[jis]

Actually even in countries that have excellent rail,networks today, barring a few exceptions their rail network was much much larger and denser until the Automobile revolution hit in full earnest. The associated Bus networks arose taking advantage of free access to roads tended to undermine passenger rail service, specially more so in more "capitalist" countries. Most of the Americas tended to fall in that category.

Countries that started with already smaller networks, which were smaller due to a combination of reasons including low population and difficult terrain among others tended to lose more of what they had. The other factors were relative resource allocation to roads vs. railroads, in general a political decision driven by local politics more often than not. South America suffered particularly more severely due to these factors, and here we are where we are.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

Countries that started with already smaller networks, which were smaller due to a combination of reasons including low population and difficult terrain among others tended to lose more of what they had. The other factors were relative resource allocation to roads vs. railroads, in general a political decision driven by local politics more often than not. South America suffered particularly more severely due to these factors, and here we are where we are.

Brazil is particularly bad in this respect, especially having large cities such as Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro that are close enough (358 km) to make rail a useful means of transport yet no such service exists yet, although they have been talking about it for years. Brazil is also hampered by having 3 different track gauges (like Australia) which doesn't help matters.

 

[jis]

Brazil is particularly bad in this respect, especially having large cities such as Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro that are close enough (358 km) to make rail a useful means of transport yet no such service exists yet, although they have been talking about it for years. Brazil is also hampered by having 3 different track gauges (like Australia) which doesn't help matters.

They should take their BRICS pal India's example to heart. Bite the bullet and convert everything to a single gauge. India has basically converted its entire huge Meter Gauge network to Broad Gauge. There is no Meter Gauge min line service left. All replaced by equivalent Broad Gauge on gauge converted routes.

 

[cirdan]

They should take their BRICS pal India's example to heart. Bite the bullet and convert everything to a single gauge. India has basically converted its entire huge Meter Gauge network to Broad Gauge. There is no Meter Gauge min line service left. All replaced by equivalent Broad Gauge on gauge converted routes.

Aren't Brazil's railroads privately owned?

Expecting them to convert gauge for the benefit of passengers trains is about as unlikely as expecting UPRR or BNSF to electrify for the benefit of Amtrak.

My personal prediction is that if passenger trains see a renaissance in Brazil, it will be in the form of purpose built HSR, not piggybacking onto present day freight routes.

 

[jis]

Aren't Brazil's railroads privately owned?

Expecting them to convert gauge for the benefit of passengers trains is about as unlikely as expecting UPRR or BNSF to electrify for the benefit of Amtrak.

My personal prediction is that if passenger trains see a renaissance in Brazil, it will be in the form of purpose built HSR, not piggybacking onto present day freight routes.

I know. We need an emoji to express "Tongue in the cheek" to attach to comments like mine

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

While LATAM may not have great intercity rail, they often have quite good and expanding metro systems (looking at you Santiago et al).

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Sometimes there are rails, but no trains. Didn't stop these guys, 250 Miles railbiking in Argentina
index

Funny you should mention this; I was thinking of them as I was catching up and reading through the thread. I've watched their videos and really enjoyed them - a lot of Argentina looks like a lot of our western states.

 

[railiner]

I had not previously researched it, but was pleasantly surprised to see that the island of Sri Lanka has some passenger train service.
I just managed to capture one, while riding a Tuk-Tuk tour of Colombo, yesterday. Sorry about the poor quality as it mostly passed before I could get camera out..

 

[user 6862]

The photos are interesting as there is a total lack of people and vehicles about, any ideas why? That you captured an 'actual' train running must have been a plus for you.

I do have other questions but not for this thread, though the burning one is... where next?

Hope you enjoyed your tuk-tuk ride, we try to use them where ever we can to see another side to life, some drivers are very skillfull but not all.

 

[railiner]

From their main station…

 

[user 6862]

From their main station…

Impressive!

 

[jis]

From their main station…

Sri Lanka has a very extensive Broad Gauge rail system with quite frequent service on the principal lines. The Main Line from Colombo Fort (station in the photograph) to Badulla rises to over 6,000' and is very scenic between Kandy and Badulla. The Mannar Line runs North from Colombo Fort all the way to Talaimannar from where one can take a ferry to Rameshwaram in India to connect to any number of Indian Railways trains to all over India. Colombo has a very extensive and frequent Suburban Service, probably more frequent than anything in the US on a couple of the principal lines, though everything was disrupted with first political unrest and Covid and then bankruptcy of the nation, thanks to China and the utter corruption of the Rajapaksa family. Currently the Suburban Service, as well as quite a bit of the Regional Service is all DMU, but there are plans to electrify.

The rolling stock is Romanian, Chinese and Indian. The Green locomotive in the photo at Colombo Fort is a Chinese knockoff of a Siemens design. Most of the Chinese cars that were acquired in the early '00s have been retired and junked due to defects that were too expensive to fix. Their latest rolling stock is from ICF, Chennai (India) and DMUs from RITES (India). They also appear to have a bunch of spanking new EMDs from DLW India, that are of IR class WDP4D, but are called something else in Sri Lanka. In addition to the Chinese and Indian diesels, they also have several old Henschel diesels that are still in use on Main Line service.

 

[user 6862]

Sri Lanka has a very extensive Broad Gauge rail system with quite frequent service on the principal lines. The Main Line from Colombo Fort (station in the photograph) to Badulla rises to over 6,000' and is very scenic between Kandy and Badulla. The Mannar Line runs North from Colombo Fort all the way to Talaimannar from where one can take a ferry to Rameshwaram in India to connect to any number of Indian Railways trains to all over India. Colombo has a very extensive and frequent Suburban Service, probably more frequent than anything in the US on a couple of the principal lines, though everything was disrupted with first political unrest and Covid and then bankruptcy of the nation, thanks to China and the utter corruption of the Rajapaksa family. Currently the Suburban Service, as well as quite a bit of the Regional Service is all DMU, but there are plans to electrify.

The rolling stock is Romanian, Chinese and Indian. The Green locomotive in the photo at Colombo Fort is a Chinese knockoff of a Siemens design. Most of the Chinese cars that were acquired in the early '00s have been retired and junked due to defects that were too expensive to fix. Their latest rolling stock is from ICF, Chennai (India) and DMUs from RITES (India). They also appear to have a bunch of spanking new EMDs from DLW India, that are of IR class WDP4D, but are called something else in Sri Lanka. In addition to the Chinese and Indian diesels, they also have several old Henschel diesels that are still in use on Main Line service.

Like your plan from Colombo to Talaimannar then catch the ferry to India, looks like another winter destination to discover. Thanks very much to you and railiner for providing such exciting travel inspiration, southern India and Sri Lanka.

But before that... we haven't started researching Argentina and Chile properly yet, lucky we have so many tea breaks just to keep up to date with all this info.

 

[jis]

Like your plan from Colombo to Talaimannar then catch the ferry to India, looks like another winter destination to discover. Thanks very much to you and railiner for providing such exciting travel inspiration, southern India and Sri Lanka.

A word of caution.... Research that one carefully before planning on it. The line to Jaffna north of Anuradhapura was closed for a long time during the Tamil Tigers insurgency, and tracks were unusable to Talaimannar. That segment has recently been rebuilt. The route to Talaimannar also uses part of the route to Jaffna north of Anuradhapura, which has been rebuilt and reopened recently. The status of the ferry was also severely disrupted during the insurgency, like, it stopped running. Don't know its current status and reliability for sure. It may not have been restored yet.

OTOH, service from Rameshwaram into India has grown by leaps and bounds recently. There is even easy connection at Coimbatore (reached from Rameshwaram by Coimbatore Express) to through weekly express service (from Kanya Kumari) all the way to Kashmir (Himsagar Express) and far reaches of Assam in the Northeast (Dibrugarh Town Vivek Express) in addition to many other daily trains.

As a matter of fact, Vivek Express from Kanya Kumari to Dibrugarh Town (Assam), is the Express train with the longest distance run in India - 4234km (2631 miles) in 79hours with 57 stops. It does have AC-2 and AC-3 Sleepers but no AC-1. It does have an AC Pantry/Buffet Car. Remarkably, of its 4234km run, only 461km is diesel hauled at the Dibrugarh end pending completion of electrification to Dibrugarh. The rest is electrically hauled by WAP-7 Class passenger electrics.

 

[user 6862]

A word of caution.... Research that one carefully before planning on it. The line to Jaffna north of Anuradhapura was closed for a long time during the Tamil Tigers insurgency, and tracks were unusable to Talaimannar. That segment has recently been rebuilt. The route to Talaimannar also uses part of the route to Jaffna north of Anuradhapura, which has been rebuilt and reopened recently. The status of the ferry was also severely disrupted during the insurgency, like, it stopped running. Don't know its current status and reliability for sure. It may not have been restored yet.

OTOH, service from Rameshwaram into India has grown by leaps and bounds recently. There is even easy connection at Coimbatore (reached from Rameshwaram by Coimbatore Express) to through weekly express service (from Kanya Kumari) all the way to Kashmir (Himsagar Express) and far reaches of Assam in the Northeast (Dibrugarh Town Vivek Express) in addition to many other daily trains.

As a matter of fact, Vivek Express from Kanya Kumari to Dibrugarh Town (Assam), is the Express train with the longest distance run in India - 4234km (2631 miles) in 79hours with 57 stops. It does have AC-2 and AC-3 Sleepers but no AC-1. It does have an AC Pantry/Buffet Car. Remarkably, of its 4234km run, only 461km is diesel hauled at the Dibrugarh end pending completion of electrification to Dibrugarh. The rest is electrically hauled by WAP-7 Class passenger electrics.

Thanks for the detailed (and interesting) advice about current options open to us. We usually carry out extensive research but having pointers as to the good, bad and ugly is a big help, we're always happy to listen to good advice.

We always make our own decisions so if this journey comes off it's because we think it is do-able.

 

[railiner]

The photos are interesting as there is a total lack of people and vehicles about, any ideas why? That you captured an 'actual' train running must have been a plus for you.

I do have other questions but not for this thread, though the burning one is... where next?

Hope you enjoyed your tuk-tuk ride, we try to use them where ever we can to see another side to life, some drivers are very skillfull but not all.

Simple…I use a “people filter”
Actually, it was a 2 day national holiday in Sri Lanka
Next port: Port Blair, India 0700 on 9 May
This is on Andaman Island.
Would really be surprised if they had a railway there…

 

[railiner]

Sri Lanka has a very extensive Broad Gauge rail system with quite frequent service on the principal lines. The Main Line from Colombo Fort (station in the photograph) to Badulla rises to over 6,000' and is very scenic between Kandy and Badulla. The Mannar Line runs North from Colombo Fort all the way to Talaimannar from where one can take a ferry to Rameshwaram in India to connect to any number of Indian Railways trains to all over India. Colombo has a very extensive and frequent Suburban Service, probably more frequent than anything in the US on a couple of the principal lines, though everything was disrupted with first political unrest and Covid and then bankruptcy of the nation, thanks to China and the utter corruption of the Rajapaksa family. Currently the Suburban Service, as well as quite a bit of the Regional Service is all DMU, but there are plans to electrify.

The rolling stock is Romanian, Chinese and Indian. The Green locomotive in the photo at Colombo Fort is a Chinese knockoff of a Siemens design. Most of the Chinese cars that were acquired in the early '00s have been retired and junked due to defects that were too expensive to fix. Their latest rolling stock is from ICF, Chennai (India) and DMUs from RITES (India). They also appear to have a bunch of spanking new EMDs from DLW India, that are of IR class WDP4D, but are called something else in Sri Lanka. In addition to the Chinese and Indian diesels, they also have several old Henschel diesels that are still in use on Main Line service.

Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge!

Have you ever considered conducting a railway tour of India? Or around the world?
It would have been great to have you aboard as a tour guide and/or lecturer on my cruise…

 

[user 6862]

Simple…I use a “people filter”
Actually, it was a 2 day national holiday in Sri Lanka
Next port: Port Blair, India 0700 on 9 May
This is on Andaman Island.
Would really be surprised if they had a railway there…

So you were travelling in a general westerly direction and now eastwards? Or is the route a 'Z' type, the sort of thing Baldrick would think up with his cunning plans.

 

[jis]

Simple…I use a “people filter”
Actually, it was a 2 day national holiday in Sri Lanka
Next port: Port Blair, India 0700 on 9 May
This is on Andaman Island.
Would really be surprised if they had a railway there…

Not yet, but it is being built...

https://traveltriangle.com/blog/first-railway-line-in-andaman-nicobar-islands/

Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge!

Have you ever considered conducting a railway tour of India? Or around the world?
It would have been great to have you aboard as a tour guide and/or lecturer on my cruise…

Thank you for your kind words. I have not considered doing any organized presentation beyond an occasional Blog or post in some forum or the other.

 

[railiner]

So you were travelling in a general westerly direction and now eastwards? Or is the route a 'Z' type, the sort of thing Baldrick would think up with his cunning plans.

Around the world, generally eastward, but some serious “zig-zags”, south to Antarctica, north to Alaska…

 

[user 6862]

Around the world, generally eastward, but some serious “zig-zags”, south to Antarctica, north to Alaska…

Sounds quite amazing. Did you get to Antartica?

 

[railiner]

Sounds quite amazing. Did you get to Antartica?

Sure did.