Best name for Twilight Shoreliner

[Superliner Diner]

Let's now have fun with the name of this train, which was reported recently to be losing the Twilight Shoreliner name and getting the Federal name instead.

 

[PRR 60]

How about the “East Coast Starlight”! On second thought, that would only work if the train were at least four hours late every day.

So, lets say the “New England Starlight” northbound, and the “Washington Starlight” southbound (“Capital Starlight” would sound better, but Amtrak already has one too many trains with “Capital” in the name). But, that could also cause confusion with that west coast train (guilt by association).

So my final entry in the attempt to improve upon “The Federal” (and that really shouldn’t take much effort), is the “Night Owl”. Gee, how original! Maybe that wasn't such a bad name afterall.

 

[Amfleet]

You would start confusing the heck out of passengers if a northbound train had a diiferent name than a southbound. The Federal works for me.

 

[Superliner Diner]

How about the “East Coast Starlight”!  On second thought, that would only work if the train were at least four hours late every day.
So, lets say the “New England Starlight” northbound, and the “Washington Starlight” southbound (“Capital Starlight” would sound better, but Amtrak already has one too many trains with “Capital” in the name).  But, that could also cause confusion with that west coast train (guilt by association).

So my final entry in the attempt to improve upon “The Federal” (and that really shouldn’t take much effort), is the “Night Owl”.  Gee, how original!  Maybe that wasn't such a bad name afterall.

Funny you mention that there are too many trains with the name "Capital" -- you have the Capitol Limited and the Capitol Corridor. Is "Capitol", note second-to-last letter, considered to be the same word as "Capital" ? Capitol is a building in Washington, but Washington is the nation's Capital.

And while on the same subject, our permanently departing Twilight Shoreliner had a similar name to one of the Michigan corridor trains, the Twilight Limited. If you recall from the brighter days when expansion was planned as part of the Network Growth Strategy instead of contraction of the system, one idea was to continue the Twilight Limited across Canada overnight into New York State and right into New York City's Penn Station. That would have left two trains with the word Twilight in their names using the same station! :blink:

 

[battalion51]

Well there used to be two dozen or so that used to share the Silver name, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and the Silver Palm. Imagine the confusion if we have a Silver Comet or another Silver name.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

My vote is for "Federal" inasmuch as that is the old historical name for one of the overnight trains on that route.

Many of Amtrak's other long distance names are "oldie goldie" pre-Amtrak names, such as CZ, Texs Eagle, Silver Star, Silvet Meteor, Capitol Limited, Empire Builder,Crescent City of New Orleans Sunset Limited, et, etc,, many of them are such, so why not this?

 

[Amfleet]

I wish Amtrak would bring back some of the glorie names like the "James Whitcomb Riley" (now Cardinal), the "Super Cheif" (now Southwest Chief), and the "Broadway Limited" (now Three Rivers).

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I agree with that.

 

[battalion51]

Just don't bring back the Florida Special. "The Mayor of Winter Park" as he is known to Amtrak employees would have a freaking fit, and would bug us more than usual.

 

[Amfleet]

Oh, and for the Florida trains I would much rather see the "Palmetto" renamed the "Silver Comet", sleeper or no sleeper.

Also if this kind of service works for the "Federal" I wonder is it could be adapted to the "Palmetto" and "Three Rivers"?

 

[AlanB]

Also if this kind of service works for the "Federal" I wonder is it could be adapted to the "Palmetto" and "Three Rivers"?

What service? :unsure:

 

[Amfleet]

Also if this kind of service works for the "Federal" I wonder is it could be adapted to the "Palmetto" and "Three Rivers"?

What service? :unsure:

Coach Class, Business Class, Sleeper, Dinette, extra amenities...

 

[PRR 60]

I wish Amtrak would bring back some of the glorie names like the "James Whitcomb Riley" (now Cardinal), the "Super Cheif" (now Southwest Chief), and the "Broadway Limited" (now Three Rivers).

*** Warning, you hit a sore point with me ***

Should Amtrak bring back the name “Broadway Limited”? I vote a resounding no. The name “Broadway Limited” (originally the Broad Way Limited, referring to the broad, four track PRR main line, not the New York avenue) should be forever retired like Babe Ruth’s or Willy Mays’ numbers.

The real Broadway Limited was all Pullman, had a huge two-car articulated diner with food and service of fine restaurant quality, a lounge car where you could sit in comfort, relax, sip a drink, and watch the world pass by, and an observation car with not one single freight car behind to spoil the view. Picture yourself sitting in the back of the Mountain View as you pass through the Pennsylvania ridges and around Horseshoe Curve on a crisp, clear moonlit night. Even as the PRR slid down the slippery slope toward insolvency and the ultimate Penn Central debacle, the Broadway Limited pulling into North Philadelphia station after it’s 81 minute sprint from New York was a sight to behold. A beautifully matched tuscan red train that was sparkling clean, and always pulled by two matched GG-1’s. It was literally breathtaking. Arrived North Philly every night at 7:21p; pulled into Chicago the next morning at 9:30am sharp. If you had a 10:00am meeting the next morning in the Loop, the odds were very good you’d be there on time. It was American passenger rail travel at its very best, and its demise (when the Penn Central cancelled the Broadway and renamed “The General” as “Broadway Limited”) told a great deal about the future direction of long distance trains.

Amtrak’s Three Rivers resembles the PRR Broadway only in that it also runs on two steel rails and kind of carries passengers between New York and Chicago. A mismatched, ugly trainset with cars of all shapes and sizes, no dining car at all, a “lounge car” that belies the name, coaches that would be best suited for New Jersey Transit, and a single, lonely sleeper. Leave Philadelphia at 3:50pm, and maybe get to Chicago at 9:20am. Even the PRR’s lowly Manhattan Limited beat that schedule by more than two hours. And I won’t even mention the fact that the train now uses the B&O across Ohio and Indiana.

Take an American Orient Express trainset and put it on scheduled NY, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago service; then the Broadway name could be reincarnated. Until then, lets not sully a great name. To Amtrak’s credit, I think the powers who name trains and seem to have a respect for rail history agree. The “Three Rivers” should never carry the Broadway name.

 

[AlanB]

Coach Class, Business Class, Sleeper, Dinette, extra amenities...

Ok. But why stop there with just the Palmetto and the Three Rivers? Why not expand that to all LD's? :unsure:

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

PRR 60--Never fear, you have an "old timer " on this board also, with me. I do know the points you are making about the Broadway, I have the same memories you have(i.e. the General, the Trail Blazer,the fact that the it is named after the 4 track run rather than the NYC Avenue, etc,etc.)

I remember the first time I saw the Broadway, at Chicago Union Station, arriving right on time one morning, probably early 60's. But still all pullman. About 17 or 18 perfectly matched tuscan red cars. I remember looking in the twin unit diner and noting lampshades on the tables, like a a nightclub. Yes, I know what you mean.

I think what folks today would like is a train at least somewhat worthy of that great name. Hopefully NOBODY on this forum would want the name indiscriminately applied to the Three Rivers as it is.

I am sure you know of similar problems with Amtrak using the "Chief" name at the beginning, also. And nobody today would dare call the Lake Shore Limited the 20th Centruy Limited. But I think there is a general awareness amongst most of the folks on the board that we are not to just start tossing names around just because they sound good.

 

[Amfleet]

Ok.  But why stop there with just the Palmetto and the Three Rivers? Why not expand that to all LD's?

I was only thinking on the LD's without a Dining Car.

And nobody today would dare call the Lake Shore Limited the 20th Centruy Limited.

How about the "21st Century Limited"?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Good catch Amfleet! I see your point...........touche, as they say.(I'm laughing)

 

[CSXBAP]

As I noted in a post back in February, I had a several hour conversation with David Gunn while onboard the Vermonter which predicted these possible changes to the Twilght Shoreliner. Mr. Gunn noted there was little sleeper ridership between Washington and Newport News. I noted the uncivilized arrival times at both DC and Boston and Mr. Gunn had experienced this himself. I noted that using the historical method of simply allowing patrons to occupy their room untill 8am would solve this problem. Hopefully the new 10pm departure time will still allow preboarding at 9pm. Mr Gunn didn't like the Twlight Shoreliner name and would have preferred the Owl which is a great historical name. However the Federal is the most correct historically, it was the name of the overnight Boston-Washington train for decades as a joint Pennsy/New Haven operation. The Owl was always a New York (Grand Central) to Boston overnight train that left it's end cities well after midnight but allowed boarding at 9pm so people could get a decent sleep on such a short run. All said, its great to see the return of the name Federal which was an institution for decades but is not as well known to some due to its nocturnal passage. It was also the only Penn Central northeast corridor train that was eliminated on May 1, 1971 when Amtrak was created and it took awhile to get the sleeper restored under the Night Owl name.

 

[Viewliner]

Some Historical Names wouldn't be bad on trains, but others are better off being gone, or give a modern twist.

I like the idea of calling it the Federal, it is a fitting name for the the BOS-WAS train, of significance (as Bill Mentioned, the derailment in which nobody was harmed/killed) and a decent sounding name.

The Broadway Limited too deserves to replace the Three Rivers, it lasted a long time and is another significant ex-PRR Train. I feel once the train gets a diner, it should be renamed.

The Lake Shore Limited isn't really bad, I'm used to that name, as are many I'm sure. While the 20th Century Limited was also a significant train in Rail History, the name isn't really timeless (sure you could call it the 21st Century Limited, but why bother?)

The James Whitcomb Riley wasn't a really good name in my opinion, and the Cardinal does sound kind of pleasant, and basically stuck to the train. I could see calling it the George Washington though, but I think its best left as is.

The Super Chief is an ok name, but Southwest Chief has also sort of stuck to the train as well, and Southwest does give a feeling towards where the train was headed to.

The Silver Comet, while appropriate for Silver Service would first be historically inaccurate (the train went to Birmingham), and passengers have become accustomed to the Palmetto/Silver Palm (Silver Palm does give that Florida feeling). I'd rather see the name used on a train to Florida running via the FEC (which would probably be better that splitting trains in to ORL and MIA (via FEC) sections)

I think the Sunset Limited is a fitting name for the Train, but if for some reason it were cut to NOL-MIA (no NOL-LAX) should be called the Gulf Coast Limited.

Floridian would be a good name for a CHI-MIA (Florida) Train if the route is ever restored (rather than K-CARD), I could however see it (or a second train) being called the South Wind.

PRR 60 does bring up a good point too (I know this isn't quite what he meant), I think these names would be best suited on trains with matching Consists (i.e. all Viewliners on SL Trains, face it, we've already started with them, we can't abandon it now, it is a decent car, that should merely be built better).

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Good points, VIewliner.

Some of my thoughts: the names 20th Century Limited, Broadway Limited and Super Chief, were, to the rail industry, what the names Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth(1st) were to the oceanliner industry.. They were truly high quality names and one must be very careful about bestowing them today.(20th Century vs 21st Century aside!!)Those names had a mystique to them which has never been duplicated.

The 3 Rivers would need a lot more than a full diner to better live up to being called the Broadway. Possibilities would be a neat special lounge much like the pacific parlor, with a theme and name of its own. ALso keep in mind that the Broadway and the 20th Century each maintained 16 hour (Aand, even less, at times)schedules during their heyday, and were all pullman during their heyday.But the name does have huge recognition value and we were , after all, using it until a few years ago anyway. Still, it needs more than just a diner.I am torn here---I am as hungry as anybody on this forum for the name Broadway Limited to be brought back; yet I am mindful of the points made by PRR60 the other day. How to reconcile? Perhaps, a matching viewliner consist and full diner, as you suggest, plus a theme lounge car. That might come as close as we can realistically do today.

A note on the name "Super Chief". The word "super" was not as colloquial then as it is today...it really MEANT something back in the 1939 or whenever the Super began operating(it was simply a shortened form of "superlative")Today the name would seem like slang, a good reason not to re-introduce it.And "Southwest" has created a legacy of its own and it is more route specific, as you say.

I am glad you do not think Silver Comet needs to be a Florida train name. I can tell you this: just living in ATL ....when people realize that I am a train buff, Silver Comet is one of the most common names to come up. For some reason that train made a name for itself....kind of surprising since its route was longer(and thus slower) than the competiing Southern Railroad Crescent and Southerner route and it was never as long as the top Southern Railroad trains, like the Crescent. and the Southerner.. One reason the name is alive and well today is the "Silver Comet Trail" for hiking and bicycles. It actually still has some "name recognition" after all these years.It is not that I collar strangers on the street and ask if they remember the Silver Comet; it is that they volunteer that info to me!

I like the name Silver Palm. This brings up images of the old name "Royal Palm" so it is a good name for Florida trans.

I have mixed feelings about Floridian. The Floridian was the Sunset Limited of its day, with horrendous timekeeping, It also had a LOT of wrecks and was VERY slow. I think at one time it was about 14 HOURS slower from CHI to MIA)than the South Wind(which it replaced) had been when it was introduced in 1941. As to name recognition, that would possibly be a bad one.It was one of Amtrak's worst nightnames. But I do not have a good idea otherwsie. SO.......maybe it would be ok. Royal Palm would be nice but you wouldn't want both a Royal Palm and a Silver Palm I don't THINK. South WInd might be ok, or perhaps City of Miami.Royal Poinciana is another old train name but kind of an awkward word.Southland is an old name, also Flamingo.

I think the name Cardinal should stay but I agree that George Washington is better than James Whitcomb Riley. For one reason, the George went from CIN to WAS, thus a longer stretch of the Cardinal's route than the JWR stretch from CHI to CIN. I think several trains around the country were named Cardinal from time to time---it was not a name which became highly identified with any particular route. Same for the word "Owl"....there were a number of Owls around the country--guess this belong more in the Federal paragraph.

Incidentally, you mentioned that the Federal 's slamming into DC Union Station had no injuries or deaths--Iam not sure about that....but I think not. Maybe somebody else supplied that info?

 

[Viewliner]

Incidentally, you mentioned that the Federal 's slamming into DC Union Station had no injuries or deaths--Iam not sure about that....but I think not. Maybe somebody else supplied that info?

I'm glad you share some of my viewpoints Bill. As for what I said about the Federal, I found that info in a book called "Classic American Railroad Terminals," by Kevin J. Holland.

Here's what It says:

One of these GG1s made headlines in 1953 when, failing to stop with the inbound Federal in tow, it crashed past its assigned past its assigned end-of-track bumper on the stations stub-ended track 16, entered the station concourse, and fell through the floor into the basement.  Remarkably, not a soul was injured-and the redoubtable GG1 was extricated and retured to service shortly thereafter.

I just had a thought, It would be cool if we could get a GG1 on the first Southbound Federal, especially if it made it to Track 16 (and stopped)!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In all seriousness, that says something about the inherent safey of train travel---one can hardly imagine an auto or plane doing something like that with no serious injuries or deaths. As I recall there was just enough warning to alert the passengers on board, and also to clear the station.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Oh yes, as to GG1's. There is one at the temporarily closed Baltimore R.R. Museum, for anyone to see once it re-opens after the ceiling collapse during the snow.

 

[Viewliner]

I think I've Seen one in Hoboken Terminal too. While I know Tuscan was the PRR Passenger Color, I think they look better in Brunswick Green.

 

[battalion51]

OK, does the Federal have a sleeper or not? Many people down here are not happy about the 12 car going away on the Star, not only the attendants, but also Conductors. One Conductor told me he had ONE empty room on the whole train the last time he worked the train this week. i personally hink dropping the 12 car is losing revenue that is there to be had.