Did not realize how much of the Tampa Branch was still up in the air and how expensive/complex the project is expected to be
Brightline Trains Florida discussion
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Did not realize how much of the Tampa Branch was still up in the air and how expensive/complex the project is expected to be
joelkfla
Engineer
A lot of this is personal opinions and speculation of the vlogger, so take it with a grain of salt. I haven't seen anything from any reliable source that the southern alignment is back under consideration.
jis
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You are correct. Seems to me that it is mostly this guy dreamin'. It requires two unlikely things to come to pass:
1. Hunter Creek which has legal rights to prevent the Turnpike Authority from allowing the use of its SR 417 ROW through Hunter Creek for rail use, has to be forced to change its mind. Good luck with that. In short SR 417 alignment was not abandoned merely because Universal made an offer. It was abandoned because Hunters Creek asserted their right to refuse. It is the Mayor of Orlando who played the leading role in getting all parties together on the Northern Route. Of course it is possible that one or more external agents including Universal instigated Hunters Creek to do so. Notwithstanding that, Hunters Creek had inserted that clause in their agreement way before anyone thought of the Southern route.
2. The taking of Disney property by the State will be stuck in courts for years if not decades, and DeSantis will be around as Governor for a little less than three more years. After that he is term limited. Who knows what will come of his personal battles with Disney after that. Good luck with getting hold of the Reedy Creek location in any reasonable amount of time.
However, that part of this guy's dream is unnecessary since the I-Drive location envisaged for the Northern route, contrary to what this guy seems to claim, is not on Reedy Creek/Disney property. It is on the other side of I-4 on public land. So the Southern route is still viable, but only if Hunter Creek would release the Turnpike Authority from its original agreement with Hunter Creek. I remember discussing this with @Brian_tampa
It would also be interesting to see if this guy is being paid under the table by someone, and if so who. It is Florida afterall
His lengthy rant about SunRail owning the Northern Route while Brightline pays for it is a bit over the top, suggesting one possible instigator. It could very well be the City of Orlando which takes the lead. I don;t know what arrangement the Mayor has in mind. The basic problem with getting across Orlando is that no matter which route one uses there is a cast of half a dozen characters involved.
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Scott Orlando
Service Attendant
I am a longtime Disney IT engineer. I have subscribed to this guys Youtube channel since he started. Most of it is new ride and rumor stuff. Its entertaining because I love to hear the wild rumor mill (not to be mistaken with the wild internal rumor mill). Usually, it gives a good "Disney fan" perspective and is much better produced than most fan sites. But it not a objective opinion, its more than a 'rah rah go Disney, Universal and others are ok but inferior' slant. Definitely an agenda in there. This is the third or fourth video mentioning Brightline. However, this one is much more in depth as far the history, the current status and the two future potential corridors. Its a pretty safe bet that he and his group augment their money stream from subscribers and views count with some corporate funding. This is too well produced, too slick, and too much of an agenda oriented production not to be financed.
So, I was born and raised in Orlando. I am going to check my Disney hat at the door and look at the bigger picture here.
1- Jis is right: The Southern route seems to be a long shot now. The fire has been lit under the Hunters Creek people and its likely that UO and the pro-northern route people started it. From here forward all the HOA/Nimbys will fight it tooth and nail. Not to say its dead... just more difficult.
2- The Northern route is a better route all around and its worth the cost. The $2.5 billion is an investment and a bargain for the benefits long term. It obviously goes to more locations that are in demand. An I-Drive/Convention Center rail link has been talked about for decades - before Universal was a thing.
3- There is no reason that a route has to serve either I-drive or Disney not both. That's asinine. The northern route going from an I-Drive station down I-4 could stop on Disney property (near Disney Springs next door to the Team Disney building as previously speculated, near ESPN as noted in the video, or on land on the west side of I-4 south of 192). It would be in Disney's best interest to have a station directly on property. Keeping guests on site has always been the name of the game. If that couldn't be worked out, Brightline could build on the east side of I-4 near Disney in the Osceola Pkwy/192 area. As we know, Fortress' game plan is to develop near its own stations....doesn't that fit the narrative? Snap up land for a station and some development onsite? I must add here: Disney and the state swap land all the time. Disney owns tons of parcels here and there and everywhere, not just the Orange/Osceola Reedy Creek behemoth everyone associates with Disney. We swapped a lot of land and made zoning deals to benefit both sides when the 429 was built.
4- Sure BL wants ownership and control over the dispatching, but this guy makes that seem like an insurmountable problem when it certainly is not. Running BL and Sunrail on the same tracks is not rocket science. Financial details can be ironed out. Bias showing from this guy.
I have been pulling for the northern route and including Sunrail in that design. My concern is the government is great at slowing down or completely stopping projects when it gets involved. BL has accomplished so much great stuff in a (relatively) short period of time, I would hate for the government to bog this project down or prevent BL from getting to Tampa.
Lots of cooks in this kitchen....
So, I was born and raised in Orlando. I am going to check my Disney hat at the door and look at the bigger picture here.
1- Jis is right: The Southern route seems to be a long shot now. The fire has been lit under the Hunters Creek people and its likely that UO and the pro-northern route people started it. From here forward all the HOA/Nimbys will fight it tooth and nail. Not to say its dead... just more difficult.
2- The Northern route is a better route all around and its worth the cost. The $2.5 billion is an investment and a bargain for the benefits long term. It obviously goes to more locations that are in demand. An I-Drive/Convention Center rail link has been talked about for decades - before Universal was a thing.
3- There is no reason that a route has to serve either I-drive or Disney not both. That's asinine. The northern route going from an I-Drive station down I-4 could stop on Disney property (near Disney Springs next door to the Team Disney building as previously speculated, near ESPN as noted in the video, or on land on the west side of I-4 south of 192). It would be in Disney's best interest to have a station directly on property. Keeping guests on site has always been the name of the game. If that couldn't be worked out, Brightline could build on the east side of I-4 near Disney in the Osceola Pkwy/192 area. As we know, Fortress' game plan is to develop near its own stations....doesn't that fit the narrative? Snap up land for a station and some development onsite? I must add here: Disney and the state swap land all the time. Disney owns tons of parcels here and there and everywhere, not just the Orange/Osceola Reedy Creek behemoth everyone associates with Disney. We swapped a lot of land and made zoning deals to benefit both sides when the 429 was built.
4- Sure BL wants ownership and control over the dispatching, but this guy makes that seem like an insurmountable problem when it certainly is not. Running BL and Sunrail on the same tracks is not rocket science. Financial details can be ironed out. Bias showing from this guy.
I have been pulling for the northern route and including Sunrail in that design. My concern is the government is great at slowing down or completely stopping projects when it gets involved. BL has accomplished so much great stuff in a (relatively) short period of time, I would hate for the government to bog this project down or prevent BL from getting to Tampa.
Lots of cooks in this kitchen....
Brian_tampa
Lead Service Attendant
Brightline service from South Florida to Orlando could be cut in half under Coast Guard plan for St. Lucie River drawbridge
I am surprised no one has posted this yet as it has significant impact on the Orlando service. Brightline says it could result in only half of the proposed Orlando service. Even FECR is saying it will have significant negative impacts on their operations.
Myself, I can't wait to see trains blocking most crossings in Stuart for up to an hour. They deserve it since they voted Brian Mast into office. And as I have said before, Stuart does not deserve a future Brightline station, ever.
I am surprised no one has posted this yet as it has significant impact on the Orlando service. Brightline says it could result in only half of the proposed Orlando service. Even FECR is saying it will have significant negative impacts on their operations.
Myself, I can't wait to see trains blocking most crossings in Stuart for up to an hour. They deserve it since they voted Brian Mast into office. And as I have said before, Stuart does not deserve a future Brightline station, ever.
Brian_tampa
Lead Service Attendant
Here is Trains magazine's take on it per Bob Johnston, for those of you who see a paywall with the Sentinel newspaper link.
Coast Guard to impose twice-hourly bridge openings on Brightline route - Trains
Scott Orlando
Service Attendant
From the Trains article:
"The order says the new rule “allows the drawbridge to operate on a more predictable schedule and allow for the reasonable usage of competing modes of transportation.” In fact, the short time it would take Brightline trains to cross would keep the waterway blocked for no more than 15 minutes in each instance — just not necessarily at 15 and 45 minutes past the hour. The order as published in the Federal Register is available here, along with a solicitation of comments."
Brightline wants the some flexibility.... The boats need a timetable but not the railroad?
"The order says the new rule “allows the drawbridge to operate on a more predictable schedule and allow for the reasonable usage of competing modes of transportation.” In fact, the short time it would take Brightline trains to cross would keep the waterway blocked for no more than 15 minutes in each instance — just not necessarily at 15 and 45 minutes past the hour. The order as published in the Federal Register is available here, along with a solicitation of comments."
Brightline wants the some flexibility.... The boats need a timetable but not the railroad?
Brian_tampa
Lead Service Attendant
Yeah, that struck me as odd. But the marine interests in Stuart and Port St Lucie are not really logical. They tend to think their own interests trump everyone else's. If what Bob Johnston says is true about the 22 and 42 minutes past each hour, how is that not agreeable? The not so frequent daylight or evening FECR train could be scheduled to follow the Brightline train through the circuit as needed between 7am and 11pm. I think this is just Brian Mast and the boaters poking Brightline in the eye intentionally.
The Sun Sentinel article said other South Florida US house representatives were working to change this rule. So there is hope...
joelkfla
Engineer
I was paywalled, but it's available on Newsbank for those who have access thru their public libraries (at least in FL.)
The article says, "The rule would require freight trains that are more than 2.5 miles long and all Brightline trains to stop when the bridge is open for marine use." Does FEC run trains more than 2.5 mi. long?
Brian_tampa
Lead Service Attendant
According to the link from the Trains Magazine article to the Federal Register of rules governing the operation the FECR bridge, there is no minimum limitation on train length that the rules would apply to.
Federal Register :: Request Access
Under this temporary deviation, the FEC Railroad Bridge shall open on signal at the quarter and three-quarter hour and remain open until all vessels requiring or requesting an opening have cleared, except any open period shall not exceed 15 minutes.
If a train is in the track circuit at the designated opening time, the opening may be delayed up to but not exceed five minutes. Once the train has cleared the track circuit, the bridge must open immediately, if requested, and remain open until all vessels requiring an opening have cleared, except any open period shall not exceed 15 minutes.
joelkfla
Engineer
Maybe the news writer meant to say, "all freight trains, some of which can be more than 2.5 miles long..." The quality of writing in newspapers other than the majors has been declining.
Joint control of dispatching with SunRail is also an option. This seems to be working on the FEC mainline with FDC.
I agree that it is in Disney's interests (honestly, it's in everybody's interests) to have a station on property or where it can access being on property. Whether this plays out or not is, of course, TBD.
So, it sounds like "The bridges will not be open from XX00-XX15 and XX30-XX45 (unless an opening is delayed, which may trigger a five-minute delay)". At times the openings could be shorter (if there are no boats waiting) and it sounds like the boats need to be "in line" at the start of the opening.
Per this read, all this necessarily means is that Brightline/FEC would need to "fleet" any operations, but this seems sufficient to support at least 2x/hr in each direction (and if you time expresses and locals to go through at about the same time you could support more than that).
VentureForth
Engineer
Does the PacSurf and the Coaster have to deal with this sort of thing near San Diego or is their big issue just single track bridges?
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I'm not sure if there are any movable bridges on the entire LOSSAN route. Although most of the route south of Anaheim was historically single track, much of it has been doubled since it went into public ownership, especially south of Oceanside where it overlaps NCTD commuter service. The primary remaining single-track segments are where the Del Mar and Miramar tunnels have been proposed. Miramar area is especially serious due to grades and sharp curves.
Brian_tampa
Lead Service Attendant
Finally a voice of reason from the Treasure Coast area. This guy seems to understand the reality of what Brian Mast has engineered for the people of Stuart. It isn't gonna be pretty if the claim by FECR of 16 trains a day stopped by the mandatory bridge openings, regardless of if there is a boat waiting.he makes a good point that at 2:15am the bridge must open! *** and Brian Mast is a republican supposedly against government overreach. Unless Mast's campaign donors are benefiting... hmmmm
On Orlando TV there was a quick segment that said Brightline planned service would be cut in half because of mandated bridge closings. Bet the lawyers are preparing their cases - on both sides.
Why isn’t something sensible discussed, like plan the openings when trains aren’t scheduled? Of course that would require Brightline/FEC to run to schedule. Not a bad thing.
Why isn’t something sensible discussed, like plan the openings when trains aren’t scheduled? Of course that would require Brightline/FEC to run to schedule. Not a bad thing.
joelkfla
Engineer
I don't think that is correct. The notice says,
Under this temporary deviation, the
FEC Railroad Bridge shall open on
signal at the quarter and three-quarter
hour and remain open until all vessels
requiring or requesting an opening have
cleared, except any open period shall
not exceed 15 minutes.
I interpret "open on signal" to mean the bridge will open if a vessel signals to request an opening. It also says it will remain open "until all vessels ... have cleared," which implies it would not open if there are no vessels. And if there's only one or two boats waiting, I'm guessing that it will be open for 5 minutes or so, not the full 15 minutes.The following explanation of signalling a bridge to open is from the website Bridge Procedures | Boat Safe | Water Sports, Product Reviews, and Nautical News:
It is customary, at least in most areas, to contact the bridge tender by VHF radio to request an opening, however, there is a sound signal that can be used. To sound signal the bridge use one prolonged blast followed within 3 seconds with one short blast.
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Chris I
Service Attendant
I know it would be insanely expensive, but has Brightline looked at a single or double-track passenger train bypass tunnel for Stuart? Turning north by the airport and going underground, under the river, and emerging at the big curve on the north end would permit uninterupted 80+ mph operations in the area?
jis
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Or they could go for a 50' high fixed structure bridge next to the Route 1 Bridge, which would be much less expensive. In order to allow steeper gradients they could leave the current line in place for freight trains.
I think the biggest complaint to be had here is that:
(1) Nobody seems to be filing oppositions to the rule (if structured as it is phrased) for these grounds; and
(2) Nobody is going to be screaming at the Coast Guard for writing up a stupidly-designed order if/when those things happen. You might see protests at a Brightline station over it (or maybe at FEC, who probably should be able to schedule freights around the openings), but the folks who wrote the rule will be insulated from any fallout.
cirdan
Engineer
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Assuming perfect scheduling, but if things do go wrong this could turn a minor delay into a major delay.
cirdan
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How long does the bridge take to open and close, including any time needed to verify that it is safe to do so?
I understand that modern bridges can be activated much more quickly than many of the historic ones.
joelkfla
Engineer
No idea, but Brightline had upgraded the mechanism. I think about 2 minutes each way is typical.
joelkfla
Engineer
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