Brightline Trains Florida discussion

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I always wondered why Brightline went with high-level platforms when everything else in Florida is low level. How much money would they have saved if they went this route? Stations would be cheaper to construct and those expensive long freight bypasses would have been eliminated. The one foot gap extensions would have been adequate to allow operation of both freight and passenger trains through low-platform stations. Tri-Rail could have used the same station platforms and there would be no need for double platform stations.
Couple reasons I can think of.

One, disability regulations regarding trains and level boarding have tightened considerably in the last decade or so. Many of the commuter rail and light rail systems as currently built would not comply with them if not grandfathered in. For example, the light rail system in my hometown of Denver uses mini full-height platforms at each end of the station to board wheelchairs. That practice is no longer permitted.

Second, high platforms result in lower station dwell time, and not just for disabled passengers (though it certainly helps them too). Normal passengers can embark and disembark slightly faster since it's as easy as walking through a door and they don't have to slow down and watch their step, and disabled passengers can treat it just like any other door as well. To use my Denver light rail example again: Under their system the train operator has to exit their cab and extend a bridge plate over the stairwell whenever a passenger in a wheelchair wishes to board, inevitably leading to them departing the station way behind schedule. Meanwhile on their newer commuter lines with level boarding and high platforms, it's as easy as rolling on and off, no operator intervention required.

Finally, the advantage of going "all high" is a completely level and accessible interior. We here in the States are blessed with an extremely generous loading gauge, and our platform heights can make full use of it. With high platform level boarding, there are no steps between cars, no height changes to navigate. This is mainly an advantage to disabled persons as it makes the whole train accessible to them, but it also improves passenger flow.

EDIT: Here's a good image showing how much taller American high platforms (~48") are compared to most of the rest of the world:


platform_heights.jpg
 
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One of Brightline's tag line almost is that their entire train is accessible to a person in a standard wheel chair without requiring any assistance. Hard to achieve on a low platform boarding multi-level unless each car is equipped with a wheelchair lift inside. Brightline as far as I can tell is very unlikely to ever go low platform bi-level.
 
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One of Brightline's tag line almost is that their entire train is accessible to a person in a standard wheel chair without requiring any assistance. Hard to achieve on a low platform boarding multi-level unless each car is equipped with a wheelchair lift. Brightline as far as I can tell is very unlikely to ever go low platform bi-level.
Compound that with the fact that Brightline uses an entirely different and incompatible ATC system to Tri-Rail (to the point that Tri-Rail is equipping their fleet of old F40PHs with both systems for Downtown Link operations), and you can see the issues running on both systems poses.

I think that if the Coastal Link ever materializes, it would make more sense for Tri-Rail to just purchase new rolling stock that uses Brightline high platforms than attempt to run their existing rolling stock on the Brightline corridor. There would presumably be enough passenger demand to justify its procurement, and there are already barriers (such as the aforementioned incompatible PTC systems) that prevent extensive crossover with the existing Tri-Rail trackage anyway.
 
Incompatible PTC is actually not as big a problem as one thinks initially. Yes, it increases cost and requires some additional cabinet space in the cab cars and locomotives. But there are now quite a few examples of equipment that are equipped with both I-ETMS and ACSES or similar transponder based systems. Tri-Rail would be such an example of I-ETMS and eATC equipped cabs and power heads. They will require a subfleet thus equipped. Or they could ditch I-ETMS on their trains and simply install eATC on their inland line. They will have to maintain I-ETMS for CSX on that route though. But even that is not all that unusual. For example NEC South of Wilmington DE is substantially equipped with both ACSES II and I-ETMS.

But I do agree that it would make sense to go fully high platform on Coastal Link with passing or gauntlet tracks at stations for freight. And of course it is pretty much a given that Coastal Link will be eATC for PTC.
 
Major news released today in the monthly report:

However, on December 20, 2019, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed the decision of the United
States District Court that the private activity bonds (“PABs”) were properly issued and that the Federal Railroad Administration (“FRA”) complied with all NEPA requirements with respect to the Environmental Impact Statement. We expect that this ruling should conclude the PABs litigation.

This is great news for Virgin for both their Florida and Las Vegas projects. Finally, they have no more legal challenges!

Also, ridership for November was just over 100,000 for a year to date total of 885k riders. They will just miss 1 million passengers!

The report also mentions a memorandum of understanding for a station at WDW having been signed by Disney and Virgin last month.
 

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  • Nov 2019 Ridership.pdf
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Here is the US Court of Appeals decision on IRC (Indian River County) v. US DOT. Another slam dunk against IRC's claims.
 

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  • 19-5012-1821042.pdf
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I agree that the IRC commissioners aren't the brightest. I found a VeroNews article from last November that said the commissioners ignored their own attorneys who urged them to accept the deal that Virgin offered them, much like what Martin County accepted. In IRC, it must be personal to them. Why else would they act so irrationally with taxpayer money? The idea that the county is even considering another appeal says a lot. They were given good legal advise, yet chose to fight on. Will the voters there re-elect them now after wasting millions of tax dollars?
 
IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area on the matter like Brightline (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.
 
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IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.
Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!
 
Not entirely stupidity but more Jerrymandering especially in NC !
Florida was basically de-gerrymandered under court order a few years back. But the constituencies in Space and Treasure Coasts were not all that gerrymandered to start with anyway. They hardly changed in the de-gerrymandering exercise. Only the corners that touched Orange and Osceola Counties changed a bit. Similarly in the south where Palm Beach County and Martin County shared constituencies probably, though I don't remember the details down there. Things changed quite a bit in Orange County which played a role in Mica getting ejected.
 
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IMHO the overall stupidity of voters in this area (and I live here, though in South Brevard County adjacent to Indian River County, though not in the hicktown part of it) is absolutely legendary. Any expert advise on anything is likely to be rejected out of hand because an Expert was involved in producing it. Well, I do overstate a bit in jest, but it is not far off.

There's a 172-part (!!!) blog series called "My Stupid State", by "Seminole Democrat". It's about Florida voters and what they've voted for. I remember it well.
 
Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!

I live in a red state and I vote Republican. I'm open to discussing issues with people who disagree with me and recognizing the value of the principles they espouse. It's a fine line between disagreeing and being disagreeable, but I suggest that painting people who live in red states, especially in the south, with such a broad brush, is a mistake. If you can't understand why a large group of people might think differently from you without being stupid, maybe you're missing something important. And you'll have no chance of changing their opinions about anything.
 
Petey, I agree with you on this. And the funny thing about Indian River voters is that they are nearly evenly split between right and left. Trump got 49% of the vote there, Libertarian party got 2%, Dems got 48% and Green got 1% if memory serves. This isn't a conservative county, it is split right down the middle. But they are truly Luddites at heart, despite any which way they vote on politics.

I live in a red state and I vote Republican. I'm open to discussing issues with people who disagree with me and recognizing the value of the principles they espouse. It's a fine line between disagreeing and being disagreeable, but I suggest that painting people who live in red states, especially in the south, with such a broad brush, is a mistake. If you can't understand why a large group of people might think differently from you without being stupid, maybe you're missing something important. And you'll have no chance of changing their opinions about anything.
 
Sounds like ALL Red States and Areas, especially the Southern Ones!
That's pretty massively offensive what you just said. I'm a civil engineer and vote mostly R, I'd like to think I'm not stupid or an idiot. I have reasons for voting the way I do. If these are the kind of comments tolerated at AU, I might as well check out the community now.
 
That's pretty massively offensive what you just said. I'm a civil engineer and vote mostly R, I'd like to think I'm not stupid or an idiot. I have reasons for voting the way I do. If these are the kind of comments tolerated at AU, I might as well check out the community now.
Sorry your feelings were hurt! Perhaps you live somewhere where the office holders are honest, unbigoted and care for everyone unlike most of the Southern States(I.live in Texas, one of the worst in these catorgories)

Voting however you want is how it's supposed to work in this Country,but unfortunately in too many instances the Majorities dont Win!

FYI My Post was taken down by the Moderators as being "Political", even though I stand by what I said as being true!You could looki if up!
 
I generally assume stupid voting choices are due to ignorance, not native stupidity. (Unless the area has a record of childhood lead poisoning, then I assume it's the lead.). Rick Scott was most famous for masterminding the biggest fraud ever against Medicare, for which his company was convicted; Florida voters elected him *after* that. It is unsurprising that his administration has been widely reported to operate on a "pay to play", provide a bribe or get obstructed, basis... But I assume the people who voted for him simply never did their homework and did not realize he was a fraudster.

Jis's description of Indian River County voters as rejecting anything from experts is describing a form of deliberate, learned ignorance.

Likewise the governor of West Virginia, Jim Justice, is most famous for violating mine safety laws and failing to fund rehabilitation of closed coal mines -- also for cheating mineworkers out of their pensions, not paying his taxes, and not funding the Black Lung compensation funds. He has used the governor's office to avoid paying his West Virginia back taxes and reclamation fees (other states are getting court orders to force him to pay). I have to believe that the people who voted for him simply never did their research on him.

There exist Republicans I would vote for, such as Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, who seems honorable and above-board and is actually helping the MBTA. But there are so many blatant self-dealing crooks running on the Republican Party line now that there are very few. And I have not even mentioned Trump yet.

The question of how to educate voters so they do not literally vote for people who will rob them... Is one I have not worked out a solution for. It is things like Rick Scott and Jim Justice which cause exasperated statements about the stupidity of voters in those states. If you didn't vote for them, please pardon my exasperation, it is not directed at you. If you did, uh... Do your homework next time, please.
 
I generally assume stupid voting choices are due to ignorance, not native stupidity. (Unless the area has a record of childhood lead poisoning, then I assume it's the lead.). Rick Scott was most famous for masterminding the biggest fraud ever against Medicare, for which his company was convicted; Florida voters elected him *after* that. It is unsurprising that his administration has been widely reported to operate on a "pay to play", provide a bribe or get obstructed, basis... But I assume the people who voted for him simply never did their homework and did not realize he was a fraudster.

Jis's description of Indian River County voters as rejecting anything from experts is describing a form of deliberate, learned ignorance.

Likewise the governor of West Virginia, Jim Justice, is most famous for violating mine safety laws and failing to fund rehabilitation of closed coal mines -- also for cheating mineworkers out of their pensions, not paying his taxes, and not funding the Black Lung compensation funds. He has used the governor's office to avoid paying his West Virginia back taxes and reclamation fees (other states are getting court orders to force him to pay). I have to believe that the people who voted for him simply never did their research on him.

There exist Republicans I would vote for, such as Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, who seems honorable and above-board and is actually helping the MBTA. But there are so many blatant self-dealing crooks running on the Republican Party line now that there are very few. And I have not even mentioned Trump yet.

The question of how to educate voters so they do not literally vote for people who will rob them... Is one I have not worked out a solution for. It is things like Rick Scott and Jim Justice which cause exasperated statements about the stupidity of voters in those states. If you didn't vote for them, please pardon my exasperation, it is not directed at you. If you did, uh... Do your homework next time, please.

Attacking voters who vote for people you don’t like does not contribute to civil discussion. There are no perfect people who run for office and until there is such a person, there will be legitimate reasons to have differing opinions about the candidates.

What has been the remarkable and unique aspect of our republic, is that we have accepted the results of the elections and, if the results were not to our liking, worked to accomplish change for the next election.

The lack of civil discourse will ultimately result in the end of the republic.

I have no problem with criticism of any particular candidate or office holder but strongly reject the insinuation that the supporters of those with whom I disagree with are “stupid” or otherwise “less than human.”

Advocacy for or against a candidate or office holder if done civilly, adds to the discourse and general knowledge.

Complaining about the intelligence of those who disagree with you does not and, in fact, says volumes about the person raising such statements.
 
From my experience living in Florida for 22 years, it matters less your political affiliation and more about money. Developers have always controlled this state, no matter which party was in control. Virgin Trains USA is run by FECI. FECI has been a huge developer here in Florida for many decades going back to Flagler's time. Not surprisingly, Virgin Trains has received strong bipartisan support here in Florida since they conceived the idea back in 2012. There are no political headwinds for Virgin Trains here.

Even the HSR project received bipartisan support before Gov Scott was elected. The Florida republicans in power back then approved spending a lot of state money on that project. Gov Scott won because of the 'tea party' wave that hit in 2010 that championed less government spending on everything.
 
Money has corrupted politics.
I consider myself an independent voter, although mostly blue, I don't rule out voting for a good Republican candidate, and have voted for a few in the past. I wasn't a particular fan of the Clintons either. However, there is not a single R that would get my vote today. The things I care about: environment (clean air, land and water), safe and healthy food supply, developed infrastructure including good public transportation systems, health care, and education.
Things I don't care about: Billionaires and Wall Street.
 
There are no political headwinds for Virgin Trains here.
There has just been a bit of head breeze, and continues to be from the like of Debbie Maynard and IRC. I don't think that is partisan in nature. I think it is due to a mix of concern about safety and the Treasure Coast obduracy (there I found a more obscure word than "stupidity" :) ).

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs...asures-to-curb-deadly-rail-crossing-accidents

Part of the issue though is that the "developers" in Florida are more often than not a relatively deceitful bunch who will sell you water bodies as land with a smile on their face. So they are generally not trusted too much by the public at a visceral level. Quite a bit of the argument against FEC is possibly driven by that than any rational analysis.

The rational point regarding the Brightline related expansion of infrastructure is about who is going to pay for the necessary grade crossing and fencing upgrades needed. Brightline has not exactly been a good citizen when it comes to installing fencing to protect their tracks, for example. Of course that does not excuse the foolhardiness of people that attempt to cross the railroad at grade crossings when the gates are down and then manage to get killed.
 
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