Broadway Ltd Route being rebuilt

[Glenn]

In all reality I can't see Amtrak adding any new trains/routes/frequency if it would increase their losses...at all. Since virtually every LD loses money on both a direct and accounting basis I can't see how any new routes or even new trains will be introduced. Obviously, new trains on existing routes is a somewhat more likely scenario, since it spreads out some of the overhead. But, unless is has a positive direct cost projection.it ain't gonna happen. Using unused lines, abandoned lines or lines that need significant upgrades is just never going to fly.

 

[Palmetto]

The abandoned ex-PRR route east of Indianapolis, to Richmond and Dayton, would be an excellent passenger route. This abandonment occurred under Conrail in the early 1980s. In 1999, Conrail was split between NS and CSX. Had this split been made before the abandonment, I wonder if either NS or CSX would have improved, and retained, this route?? Anyway, imagine a revived route serving Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, St. Louis, and Kansas City. Major population centers with lots of potential passengers to fill the trains!

Yup, trains 30 and 30, the National Limited, used to do that. One of the victims of the "Carter cuts", IIRC.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

In all reality I can't see Amtrak adding any new trains/routes/frequency if it would increase their losses...at all. Since virtually every LD loses money on both a direct and accounting basis I can't see how any new routes or even new trains will be introduced. ...

Actually, several of the Eastern, single-level LD trains probably make a positive return now, or very nearly so. Depending on how the Viewliner II diners and sleeper revenues turn out in practice, we'll see. One respected poster here suggests that each added sleeper could add at least $1 million a year net, or $25 million plus for the 25, reducing losses to minimal levels, or turning to positive levels, on the Silvers, the Lake Shore Ltd., and perhaps even the Crescent and Cardinal.

Taking the Cardinal daily seems to be the low-hanging fruit for expansion. Estimates are for ridership to more than double. (And Amtrak's forecasts are very cautious, because god forbid that ridership ever fall short of projections, the haters would never shut up about it. Also, the estimates of the PRIIA study are already stale by several years, so population growth, new equipment being acquired, etc. suggest actual ridership would outperform the estimates even more.)

But there's a problem. Assume, for this example, that the Cardinal loses $1 on every train, 3 trains a week, $3 a week in losses. Assume that taking the train daily would cut daily losses in half. Then the Cardinal would lose only 50¢ a day, but 7 days a week, gives $3.50 a week in losses. In real world numbers, the additional losses would be small, a few million a year in the scheme of things. If Amtrak, Congress, and the public assign a value of zero ($0) to the additional 120,000 or so riders served, then it's a bad deal. If we say that obviously there is some value created, then a daily Cardinal probably makes good sense.

Of course, a daily Cardinal would have other benefits. Running a train 3 days a week says "LOSER" like nothing else, so fixing that would be a marketing win for sure. And a daily Cardinal would feed more passengers to other LD trains at Chicago and D.C., but those added system revenues would not show up on a simple revenue/expense for the Cardinal.

So even in the difficult current political climate, I could see taking the Cardinal daily as soon as enuff equipment is available.

Of course, the political climate could well change. For example, I believe that the haters are reflexively against anything and everything that the black man in the White House favors. But a white man (or even a white woman) will be back in the White House starting Jan. 20, 2017, and God will be back in his white Heaven. Then the haters will have much less reason to obsess against passenger trains and Amtrak could begin to grow on a case by case basis.

 

[keelhauled]

Of course, the political climate could well change. For example, I believe that the haters are reflexively against anything and everything that the black man in the White House favors. But a white man (or even a white woman) will be back in the White House starting Jan. 20, 2017, and God will be back in his white Heaven. Then the haters will have much less reason to obsess against passenger trains and Amtrak could begin to grow on a case by case basis.

This may be the single dumbest political analysis I have ever read. Obama hasn't made hardly a peep about passenger rail since the stimulus. And there has been opposition to Amtrak from the right for its entire existence. Did you really think that everything was peachy before 2009? And do you really think that if Clinton is elected a Republican congress is going to go "yep, ok, Amtrak is awesome?" Or if the republicans win the presidency AND Congress? I see no universe in which Amtrak starts adding trains willy nilly even if the guy is white. Or even more likely, you vastly overestimate the importance of long distance trains to anyone in Washington, and regardless of who wins what the system is steadfastly ignored and goes limping along on a shoestring budget the same way it has for the past forty years.

 

[FormerOBS]

I agree that race has a lot to do with the animas against Mr. Obama, even though he's half white. But it's also true that the anti-Amtrak contingent would be there no matter who the President is. Joe Biden is known to be an ardent Amtrak supporter, but he's had much bigger fish to fry in the past 6 years. In this case, I hope logic wins out over emotional, knee-jerk, uninformed transportation policy.

Tom

 

[MrManners]

So - lets lock this thread and wait for the announcement that the Broadway Ltd Route is being rebuilt and then posting will resume?

 

[jis]

The rebuilding of that trackage is an observed and verified fact that has been published in the press including quoted statements from NS as evidenced in the first post of this thread. Perhaps in the hurry to vent regarding a matter that has nothing to do with this thread there was not enough time to actually bother to read that far back up this thread?

 

[TML]

In terms of Ohio, as long as the current governor is in office, I think he will do whatever he can to obstruct additional passenger rail service in his state. Therefore, I believe that substantial expansion of service in OH will only happen after this governor leaves office.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Of course, the political climate could well change. For example, I believe that the haters are reflexively against anything and everything that the black man in the White House favors. But a white man (or even a white woman) will be back in the White House starting Jan. 20, 2017, and God will be back in his white Heaven. Then the haters will have much less reason to obsess against passenger trains and Amtrak could begin to grow on a case by case basis.

This may be the single dumbest political analysis I have ever read. Obama hasn't made hardly a peep about passenger rail since the stimulus. And there has been opposition to Amtrak from the right for its entire existence. Did you really think that everything was peachy before 2009? And do you really think that if Clinton is elected a Republican congress is going to go "yep, ok, Amtrak is awesome?" Or if the republicans win the presidency AND Congress? I see no universe in which Amtrak starts adding trains willy nilly even if the guy is white. Or even more likely, you vastly overestimate the importance of long distance trains to anyone in Washington, and regardless of who wins what the system is steadfastly ignored and goes limping along on a shoestring budget the same way it has for the past forty years.

I said trains might be added "on a case by case basis". You claim that I said Amtrak might start adding trains "willy nilly". In other words, you completely misrepresent what I said. There's a three letter synonym for doing that, actually. But in any case, when you can't tell the truth about what I say, then what you say ain't worth much of a reply.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Under current trackage agreements apparently they can divert only 10 per day.

Depends on how many trains in total are currently using the NS tracks south of the lake, but I expect that diverting even 8 or 10 trains a day could heave a huge impact on managing the traffic flow in that bottleneck. And I'd like for the potentially explosive oil trains to be on a less populous, less crowded route. So it's all good.

Of course, with oil prices having collapsed, I'm not sure how many more oil trains we'll be seeing from the domestic fracking fields. That congestion problem could solve itself.

 

[jis]

Rest assured oil prices will not remain collapsed. The options market is betting on $100 per barrel by this time 2016 according to some reports.

 

[jis]

Of course, the political climate could well change. For example, I believe that the haters are reflexively against anything and everything that the black man in the White House favors. But a white man (or even a white woman) will be back in the White House starting Jan. 20, 2017, and God will be back in his white Heaven. Then the haters will have much less reason to obsess against passenger trains and Amtrak could begin to grow on a case by case basis.

This may be the single dumbest political analysis I have ever read. Obama hasn't made hardly a peep about passenger rail since the stimulus. And there has been opposition to Amtrak from the right for its entire existence. Did you really think that everything was peachy before 2009? And do you really think that if Clinton is elected a Republican congress is going to go "yep, ok, Amtrak is awesome?" Or if the republicans win the presidency AND Congress? I see no universe in which Amtrak starts adding trains willy nilly even if the guy is white. Or even more likely, you vastly overestimate the importance of long distance trains to anyone in Washington, and regardless of who wins what the system is steadfastly ignored and goes limping along on a shoestring budget the same way it has for the past forty years.

I said trains might be added "on a case by case basis". You claim that I said Amtrak might start adding trains "willy nilly". In other words, you completely misrepresent what I said. There's a three letter synonym for doing that, actually. But in any case, when you can't tell the truth about what I say, then what you say ain't worth much of a reply.

I think you misunderstand what his main point was. He is basically questioning you core hypothesis as to why those who hate passenger trains within the political spectrum do so. I can see considerable justification for such skepticism.

 

[afigg]

This may be the single dumbest political analysis I have ever read. Obama hasn't made hardly a peep about passenger rail since the stimulus.

That is not correct. Obama advocated for passenger rail funding and expansion in the 2010, 2011, and 2012 budget submissions and plugged passenger rail as part of infrastructure spending in 2010, 2011, and IIRC 2012 State of the Union speeches. It has only been the past several years that the Obama Administration has dropped a strong public push for HSR and intercity passenger rail expansion because it is obvious that such plans are going nowhere in the Republican controlled House. The Administration's FY2016 proposed budget has increased spending for passenger rail and transit as part of a big infrastructure proposal, but it is mostly getting ignored by the press because 1) everyone knows it will mostly be ignored on the Hill, and 2) because infrastructure spending is a boring topic. However, with the Highway Trust Fund about to run out of money (again) in a couple of months, highway and infrastructure spending will be a hot topic in May and June.
What there is support for on Capitol Hill is maintaining the current level of Amtrak funding with maybe a small boost. That won't bring back the Broadway Limited over the old route through Ohio. Nor buy lots of replacement rolling stock. As we have discussed before on this forum, is the idea of restoring the BL/Three Rivers to CHI through Cleveland and Toledo, but run 1 of the 3 CHI-CLE segment LD trains north from Toledo and through Michigan. With 235 miles of up to 110 mph track in Michigan by late 2017, why not use it for at least 1 east coast LD train service?

 

[neroden]

Of course, a daily Cardinal would have other benefits. Running a train 3 days a week says "LOSER" like nothing else, so fixing that would be a marketing win for sure. And a daily Cardinal would feed more passengers to other LD trains at Chicago and D.C., but those added system revenues would not show up on a simple revenue/expense for the Cardinal.

The main reasons why a daily Cardinal is "low hanging fruit":-- Going from three-a-week to seven-a-week can be expected to multiply ridership by 7/3, or 2.33 -- in fact, historically results have often been better than this because three-a-week is so inconvenient. Revenue should go up by a similar factor; while more capacity might lead to lower prices, higher prices can be charged for more convenient service. There is definitely enough demand along the route (the cities along the route are sizeable).

-- Going from three-a-week to seven-a-week only increases the number of trainsets from 2 to 3 -- staff costs multiply in a similar fashion, due to various layover-related costs, so basically direct costs increase by a factor of 1.5.

Multiply revenues by 2.33 and direct costs by 1.5 and you can see how the bottom line could improve. Even if the financials are worse than this, it's still very positive. Given the current revenues and direct costs for the Cardinal, I believe it would actually be good for the bottom line -- not just per-passenger subsidy, but overall dollar subsidy.

 

[dlagrua]

Kneemeister, the Broadway Ltd never went through Indianapolis. It went from Ft Wayne on a direct route NW to Valpariso, then to Gary and Chicago.

As for passenger service on the route; I don't see that happening anytime soon but in recent years, Amtrak has been selling out excursion trains. There might be a possibility that we will see a "nostalgia run" on the route.

 

[kneemeister]

I am aware of where the Broadway Ltd went. I lived in Indianapolis for 6 years. I was responding to someones comment about the PRR from Columbus thru Dayton to Indianapolis.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

At one time the PRR Broadway Ltd was one of the prime routes from NYP to Chicago. It was a luxury train that had its own dedicated route to Chicago. After leaving Pittsburgh, the line did not use the current Amtrak water line route but went though Crestline, Columbus, and Lima in Ohio and Ft Wayne, Valpariso and Gary in Indiana.

Amtrak continued the train until 1995 but after a decision by Conrail to abandon the Western segment through Valpariso and Gary , discontinuance was necessary. Fast forward to 2015 and the American oil boom. The water line route has become overcrowded and CSX has decided to rebuild the line. Work crews are currently laying track and there is info here: http://allaboardohio.org/2014/12/22/fort-wayne-line-rebirth/

This doesn't mean that the Broadway Ltd will be returning but with the parallel route to CHI operational the possibilities for passenger service will exist.

Perhaps forum members that have traveled on the Broadway Ltd and those in the area can provide additional info.

BTW, my posts do not accept links so the url is hand typed.

Here is the LINK which wasn't typed correctly, either, but I found it.

Any update?

It would certainly be easier to use the Toledo-Cleveland route but if it is too congested and NS refuses to allow it or demands too much $ and the Ft. Wayne route is possible, I'm all for it. I'll take any route that gets Harrisburg/Lancaster/Philadelphia to Chicago without a transfer or a long layover (the PRIIA proposal still has a 4 hr. delay in PGH westbound although that would still be better than what we have now).

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

This link was on All Aboard Ohio's Facebook page:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/norfolk_southern/article/Norfolk-Southern-pours-capital-sweat-equity-into-its-new-Premier-Corridor--49060

"As a result of the analysis, the Class I now is building a reverse connection in Vermilion, Ohio, that’s designed to smooth traffic flow along a portion of the Premier. The $12.5 million connection will enable eastbound trains to move off the formerly named Chicago Line between the Windy City and Cleveland — the railroad’s busiest line that accommodates 100 trains per day, including 14 Amtrak trains — and onto the B-Line, a parallel NS mainline that provides access to New England and upstate New York markets. The B-Line doesn’t have as much capacity as the Chicago Line, but doesn’t host as many trains."

I'm not sure this would help or hurt the ability for Amtrak to add a new "Broadway Limited" or if it would affect the LSL and CL in a positive or negative manner. When I googled "Norfolk Southern B line", I got a line from Virginia so I have no idea as to where the B line they are referring to is. If you zoom in the map on the page (http://www.progressiverailroading.com/resources/editorial/2016/PremierCorridor.jpg) , the B line looks like Chicago to Ft. Wayne to Fostoria to Cleveland.

 

[railiner]

I couldn't see the map link on my phone, but that route sounds like the former Nickle Plate Road...

 

[Seaboard92]

The B line you mentioned in VA is very scenic. I've worked on it. Great like. Slow speeds though in places

 

[FormerOBS]

Yes, the line through Fort Wayne-Fostoria-Bellevue-Cleveland is former Nickel Plate. It's mostly single track, longer, and probably not up to the speed capability of the line through Cleveland along Lake Erie. It bypasses Toledo and, except for Fort Wayne, it hits no really populous cities, although it runs through Leipsic, which isn't too far from Lima. In bypassing Toledo, it would involve a greater distance from Detroit. I really can't see any advantage to using that line, but what do I know?

However, on further reflection I could envision a Broadway Limited route that would take the train east from Chicago on the NKP route to serve Fort Wayne. Lima would be served by a new stop at Leipsic. The train would move onto the old B&O mainline at Fostoria and serve Akron and Youngstown before arrival at Pittsburgh, where it would resume the old Broadway Limited route. This would have several advantages. Service would be restored to Fort Wayne, Lima (indirectly), Fostoria, Akron, and Youngstown. Three of those five are fairly large, and the other two are at least not insignificant. Travelers from Columbus would be much closer to train service (via Fostoria or some other town in that vicinity). Chicago-Pittsburgh, and Chicago-New York service would be doubled. Direct Chicago-Harrisburg and Philadelphia service would be reinstated. The weak link is probably the many miles of single track west of Fostoria.

Tom

 

[railiner]

It would help if NS would send more of their freight trains that way, and free up more slots on the ex NYC main for Amtrak trains...

 

[WoodyinNYC]

This link was on All Aboard Ohio's Facebook page:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/norfolk_southern/article/Norfolk-Southern-pours-capital-sweat-equity-into-its-new-Premier-Corridor--49060

"... onto the B-Line, a parallel NS mainline that provides access to New England and upstate New York markets. The B-Line doesn’t have as much capacity as the Chicago Line, but doesn’t host as many trains."

If you zoom in the map on the page (http://www.progressiverailroading.com/resources/editorial/2016/PremierCorridor.jpg) , the B line looks like Chicago to Ft. Wayne to Fostoria to Cleveland.

Very interesting Progressive Railroading article. It has to be good for Amtrak to expand capacity and add flexibility on this CHI-East Coast route.

And for dreamers, my goodness, there's a MAP with a nice NS route running NYC-Allentown-Bethlehem-Reading-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Akron-Fort Wayne-CHI. With 10 years and $10 Billion we could surely put another LD train there and a couple of corridor routes as well. OK, maybe we'll need 20 years and $20 Billion. LOL.

 

[FormerOBS]

Woody:

What you propose is the same as my suggestion, except for the routing east of Harrisburg. I hadn't thought about bypassing Philadelphia, but maybe the addition of Allentown, Bethlehem, and Reading (and maybe Hershey) would be worth it.

I guess an important consideration would be the schedule. How fast could such a train make it over the road?

Hmmmmm.

Tom

 

[railiner]

Not sure, but the last thru train from Jersey City to Harrisburg on the CNJ and RDG, back in the early sixties, took a lot longer than the PRR---something like 5 hours...