Broken Down Cardinal (51)

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Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
934
Location
Brownsburg IN
I’m sitting on the Cardinal just north of Rensselaer IN - trying to get to Chicago to catch the Zephyr.

We’d been limping along for the past hour or so.

They just announced that “a mistake has been made” and “upper management has decided to replace the crew”

Not sure what that means. It sure didn’t sound like a crew hours issue. Especially since in the past at least the crew change was in Indy.

If we don’t make the connection, I’ll be canceling my trip on the Zephyr, which would be a big disappointment.

Things just keep getting stranger and stranger...
 
They just made an another announcement. Sounds like they are removing the crew for a PTC violation. That’s pretty serious.

Unfortunately, I’d say it is 50-50 at best making my connection to the Zephyr. We’ll see...
 
I overheard the conductor explaining the situation somewhat. This is heavily paraphrased.

Evidently the crew was called to Beech Grove at 3:30am to deadhead cars (and at least 1 engine I believe) on 51. Pretty normal situation, but I believe Monday is the more typical deadhead day.

Supposedly they had trouble with PTC in the yard and when they were leaving Indy. At some point between Crawfordsville and Rensselaer the crew made some sort of PTC related mistake that ticked off CSX, and someone at CSX demanded a crew change.

Sooooo...looks like there are going to be a lot of missed connections and expensive cancellations.

It’s hardly life or death, but it is disappointing. I had managed to reserve low bucket, and was also able to acquire good seats at a fair price for the Lions-Raiders game on Sunday, and then enjoy a day or two of bike riding in a somewhat warmer clime before flying back.

All that is pretty much out the window now. I’m traveling with my bike - so even if they do some sort of bus to catch up with the Zephyr out of Chicago - I’m not sure they’ll be able to accommodate the bike on the bus.

Life goes on :)
 
You haven’t missed the train until the zephyr leaves the station! Hoping for the best.

Certainly since this was 100% on Amtrak, they should be extremely accommodating!
 
Supposedly they had trouble with PTC in the yard and when they were leaving Indy. At some point between Crawfordsville and Rensselaer the crew made some sort of PTC related mistake that ticked off CSX, and someone at CSX demanded a crew change.

What a load from CSX. A bunch of hypocrites. They're the ones constantly putting cars on the ground and messing up. It's not their train. Yes they are the host railroad, but as far as I'm concerned they shouldn't have a say in a crew change unless it's hours of service related. So because someone got their panties in a bunch passengers are going to miss their connection. I guess they're trying to Crash Smash and Xplode passenger service now.
 
Not sure what actually happened but at least no one got hurt and Amtrak is now notified of the issue so it won’t happen again from these individuals. Unfortunately different issues always happen and will continue to happen.
 
What a load from CSX. A bunch of hypocrites. They're the ones constantly putting cars on the ground and messing up. It's not their train. Yes they are the host railroad, but as far as I'm concerned they shouldn't have a say in a crew change unless it's hours of service related. So because someone got their panties in a bunch passengers are going to miss their connection. I guess they're trying to Crash Smash and Xplode passenger service now.

CSX is not at fault here. The host railroad is held liable. They acted appropriately in this incident. The host railroads absolutely can and will have a say if crews are in violation. This requires federal oversight with the appropriate federal regulatory agency. If I was on that train I would not have blamed CSX. I have had issues on Amtrak too like broken headlamps requiring a locomotive replacement to be sent requiring waiting time.

There was a bad accident on CSX line with multiple fatalities earlier. Not sure if there was more than one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ollides-with-freight-train-in-south-carolina/

Too often the host railroads can’t catch the issues in time especially if Amtrak crews are messing up. So a crew change is very fortunate here.
 
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CSX is not at fault here. The host railroad is held liable. They acted appropriately in this incident. The host railroads absolutely can and will have a say if crews are in violation. This requires federal oversight with the FRC as well.

I beg to differ.. It's their PTC that malfunctioned. Not Amtrak's. As long as the crew is in compliance with the rules then it's not on Amtrak.
 
Yeah how do you know this info. The PTC is operated by CSX not Amtrak. Amtrak trains communicate with the system. At any rate, I am sure the federal regulators will find out what happened to prevent it from happening again. All we know is what was said on these forums which is not much. Was the locomotive changed with new equipment or just a crew change?

All I know from what I’ve read is speculation of a PTC issue, and CSX requiring a crew change for Amtrak. If there was a violation, then regulators generally get involved. CSX does have a right to request crew change for Amtrak if they have issues and appropriately notify appropriate parties. While I do know freight trains have overtaken priority of passenger trains, I have not heard of any systemic issues of CSX requesting new crew. This is not routinely done. My own opinion is that the crew was doing something inappropriately. I wonder if the FRA website or others will have more information but at this time all I know is what was posted here.

While it could be possible for CSX to have made a mistake, better to be cautious and review what happened afterwards.
 
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And how do you know this information?

Does Amtrak owe the route between IND and CHI? No. It's owned, operated, and dispatched by CSX in Jacksonville. The PTC info comes from CSX. The Amtrak crew has to ask to have the dispatcher or PTC Desk before "Cutting out" the PTC. If they complied with this then it's not an Amtrak issue. It's a CSX issue.

Now let's say the Engine crew took it on his or her own to cut out the PTC without permission. That's a whole different story.

I can tell you first hand that the CSX rule book is the worst Rule Book for users. It's not user friendly at all and is very hard to understand. It's almost like trying to read a language that you don't know for some. BUT, the crew has to be qualified on the CSX rule book to operate. So you can rule that out as an excuse. I qualified on the CSX rule book, so it's possible.

You have to remember, that with PTC coming online, their are plenty of teething issues. It's happening everyday. It's not uncommon for a dispatcher or the PTC desk to tell trains to cut out their PTC. It's not just Amtrak and CSX. It's each railroad. You have a new technology that is still new. Just like everything else new their are bugs to work out.
 
I totally understand but you are claiming it isn’t Amtrak’s fault when you don’t know what happened. Or did I read into your post too much?
 
I totally understand but you are claiming it isn’t Amtrak’s fault when you don’t know what happened. Or did I read into your post too much?

A combination of both. ;)

What I'm saying is the section of RR in question is owned by CSX. It's their PTC system in place. Not Amtrak's. The only thing that could be the fault of Amtrak's is the motive power was not properly equipped. Which is almost certainly not the issue. The other thing that could be on Amtrak is the motive power couldn't load the PTC. In which case just ask to have the PTC Cut Out.

Again, PTC is still a brand spankin new technology that is going through major teething issues. I've been on the NEC on the head end after ACSES was deployed along the entire Amtrak Owned NEC. The train was going 125 in a 125 zone and then all of a sudden ACSES showed a temporary speed restriction of 90 mph that wasn't on the TSRB. Meaning it shouldn't have been in the system. In that situation all you can do is put the train into suppression until the train reaches the MAS, and notify the appropriate dispatcher.
 
In the end - I’m aborting the west coast trip and heading back home on the Cardinal tonight. Amtrak refunded my ticket to Emeryville, and paid for the return from CHI to Crawfordsville in a sleeper (I was in BC northbound).

I cancelled my hotel in SF without penalty, and my flight from OAK to IND was on Southwest, so as long as I use the fare in the next 12 months no loss there.

On the NFL ticket, I’ll lose $100 to $250 depending on whether I can resell it at a smaller loss ($100) or can’t sell it at all ($250).

Not ideal. Could have been worse.
 
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