Carolinian 80(9) Grade Crossing accident

[PaulM]

That number's got to be off by at least an order of magnitude.

I am sure there are more than 25 gated grade crossings between Richmond and Jacksonville.

Aha! I've always wondered what an "order of magnitude" was. I heard it mentioned lot when I lived in DC , but never studied it in any math class. Now at least I know it has something to do with the number 10.

 

[RampWidget]

Maybe the ferried empty consists south? They definitely had enough time to do so.

Good point; could well be, but I haven't seen any extra equipment headed south. It shouldn't be an issue to find four or five Viewliner sleepers at HIA, and we know there are several Viewliner bags (theoretically) available. There's AMF and likely a diner in or around the maintenance facility, but I wouldn't think there would be two diners, two cafes, and eight coaches ready for service. It will be interesting to see what the folks at the coach yard come up with this morning.

 

[user 1359]

I just got up to check my e-mail as I have reservations on S/B 53 today (3/11). The e-mail was sent at 12:31AM this morning I called AMTRAK as they asked me to in the e-mail and said that check-in at Lorton had been pushed back until 4pm due to the derailment. I suppose late is better than cancelled.

 

[SilverService]

Train 98(11) is cancelled account no equipment. Enough equipment was readied to operate 92(11) with a normal consist plus an extra sleeper.

 

[Ryan]

That number's got to be off by at least an order of magnitude.

I am sure there are more than 25 gated grade crossings between Richmond and Jacksonville.

Aha! I've always wondered what an "order of magnitude" was. I heard it mentioned lot when I lived in DC , but never studied it in any math class. Now at least I know it has something to do with the number 10.

Powers of 10 - so if his 250 was off by an order of magnitude, the correct answer is 25 or 2500. Off by 2 orders of magnitude would be a factor of 100, so 2.5 or 25000. So on from there.

I really should have thought about it in terms of track length. An average of 1 grade crossing per mile feels about right to me, so something on the far side of 600 crossings for that stretch, which isn't too far off from what was counted.

 

[PRR 60]

Some interesting info:

The truck was carrying a modular power distribution center. This is kind of a small substation used at commercial and industrial facilities. They are built in a factory, hauled to the site, set on foundations, and plugged-in (not quite that easy, but you get the idea). They are pretty big and pretty heavy.

The truck was operating under an oversize load permit that, in North Carolina, requires a state police escort. The patrolman was at the scene and directing traffic as the truck was attempting to turn left onto US 301.

During the process as traffic was stopped, a woman in the stopped traffic lowered her window and asked one of the workers flagging traffic if he could alert the railroad. He said that he did not think so.

When asked why the patrolman had not called the railroad, the state police said the trucking company is responsible to call the railroad if a truck is stuck on a crossing.

McClatchy DC

WRAL

News & Observer

 

[dlagrua]

We seem to be reading reports of Amtrak grade crossing accidents more frequently. If it keeps going like this, the situation could result in a severe shortage of engines and other cars. AFAIK, Amtrak doesn't have much spare equipment and Bear or Beech Grove can't do repairs overnight. I hope that more train cancellations won't be a result.

 

[Ryan]

Your feelings are not born out in actual data:



Graph constructed by me, based on data available here: http://oli.org/about-us/news/collisions-casulties

When asked why the patrolman had not called the railroad, the state police said the trucking company is responsible to call the railroad if a truck is stuck on a crossing.

That's so completely ridiculous that I actually believe it's true. So much for "To protect and serve"...

 

[chrsjrcj]

When asked why the patrolman had not called the railroad, the state police said the trucking company is responsible to call the railroad if a truck is stuck on a crossing.

What. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

 

[VentureForth]

What bothers me in the first two of these articles is that a woman asked if they should call the railroad. If she was concerned, she should have called them and then stayed on the phone until the truck cleared.

Your feelings are not born out in actual data:

This is the longest "plateau" without improvement since the beginning of the graph and even a slight uptick since 2009. Fair to say that there's been a bit of complacency in the last 6 years.
But what we hear about isn't necessarily AMTRAK incidents. It's passenger rail incidents. The other two this year were Metro North and Metrolink.

 

[John Bobinyec]

What bothers me in the first two of these articles is that a woman asked if they should call the railroad. If she was concerned, she should have called them and then stayed on the phone until the truck cleared.

So you're saying the woman should have parked her car in the middle of the road (because she was stuck in traffic), presumably leaving the kids and the dog in the car alone, walked over to the little blue sign to get the dispatcher's phone number and called on her cell phone.

I don't expect most people would do that - ESPECIALLY if they are expecting a wreck. In that situation, if the gates start going down, they'd want to make some sort of crazy maneuver to get the heck out of there.

I happen to have the numbers already entered in my cell phone, but the average person would not.

jb

 

[VentureForth]

My assumption was that if she was close enough to roll her window down to talk to the truck driver, she was close enough to see the phone number on the crossing arm.

I would not expect anyone to put themselves or others into additional danger.

 

[niemi24s]

Fair to say that there's been a bit of complacency in the last 6 years.

I don't think that can be fairly said without factoring in the total amount of passenger and freight traffic.

 

[John Bobinyec]

My assumption was that if she was close enough to roll her window down to talk to the truck driver, she was close enough to see the phone number on the crossing arm.

I would not expect anyone to put themselves or others into additional danger.

The number is not on the crossing arm. The number is written on a LITTLE blue sign which stands at the side of the road, just in front of the crossbucks sign. I doubt if anyone could read it from their car stopped at the crossing. Perhaps it should be written on a big RED sign so that it would be legible from a stopped car at the crossing.

jb

 

[afigg]

During the process as traffic was stopped, a woman in the stopped traffic lowered her window and asked one of the workers flagging traffic if he could alert the railroad. He said that he did not think so.

When asked why the patrolman had not called the railroad, the state police said the trucking company is responsible to call the railroad if a truck is stuck on a crossing.

The legal finger pointing of "hey it was the other guys responsibility" is just getting started. The modular power center was likely an expensive piece of equipment and, from the photos, is likely a complete write-off. This is going to be a costly accident for one or more insurance companies and the trucking company. This was an entirely avoidable collision if the trucking company had followed a proper procedure when moving a seriously oversized load. There should have been a detailed move plan that covered every intersection and turn and obstacle, including the grade crossing.

 

[Ryan]

But what we hear about isn't necessarily AMTRAK incidents. It's passenger rail incidents. The other two this year were Metro North and Metrolink.

Good point - we can dive into the FRA data, but that only includes Class Is, so we can look at Amtrak but not the commuter roads.

We can see that the number of highway-rail incidents is in fact increasing for Amtrak, when normalized for train miles:

 

[afigg]

This is the longest "plateau" without improvement since the beginning of the graph and even a slight uptick since 2009. Fair to say that there's been a bit of complacency in the last 6 years.

But what we hear about isn't necessarily AMTRAK incidents. It's passenger rail incidents. The other two this year were Metro North and Metrolink.

Presumably a number of reason for the plateau. The easier part in reducing grade crossing collisions has been done. Tighter state road and highway budgets since the 2008 recession have resulted - after the construction surge from the stimulus - in a big dropoff in completing grade separation and grade crossing improvement projects.

The HSIPR funded projects will close or improve hundreds of grade crossings on some Amtrak routes and there are state projects that will close grade crossings (Southern CA, CREATE, etc) but there are many thousands of grade crossings in the US. So reducing the grade crossing collision annual stats has probably moved into the increasingly difficult to do stage.

 

[Karl1459]

During the process as traffic was stopped, a woman in the stopped traffic lowered her window and asked one of the workers flagging traffic if he could alert the railroad. He said that he did not think so.

When asked why the patrolman had not called the railroad, the state police said the trucking company is responsible to call the railroad if a truck is stuck on a crossing.

The legal finger pointing of "hey it was the other guys responsibility" is just getting started. The modular power center was likely an expensive piece of equipment and, from the photos, is likely a complete write-off. This is going to be a costly accident for one or more insurance companies and the trucking company. This was an entirely avoidable collision if the trucking company had followed a proper procedure when moving a seriously oversized load. There should have been a detailed move plan that covered every intersection and turn and obstacle, including the grade crossing.

It would be fun if we were to be a fly on the wall in the sorting out of liabilities.

The trucking company.

The DOT for issuing a permit (assuming there was no move plan)

The State Patrol, for failing to recgonize the hazard on the tracks and take approprate action in notifing the railroad.

As to the officer who felt it was not his job to notifiy the railroad, he may well find out it is no longer his job.

 

[Paulus]

But what we hear about isn't necessarily AMTRAK incidents. It's passenger rail incidents. The other two this year were Metro North and Metrolink.

Good point - we can dive into the FRA data, but that only includes Class Is, so we can look at Amtrak but not the commuter roads.

We can see that the number of highway-rail incidents is in fact increasing for Amtrak, when normalized for train miles:

You can get it for all passenger railroads as well.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks!

Not a hugely different story:

 

[VentureForth]

But what we hear about isn't necessarily AMTRAK incidents. It's passenger rail incidents. The other two this year were Metro North and Metrolink.

Good point - we can dive into the FRA data, but that only includes Class Is, so we can look at Amtrak but not the commuter roads.

We can see that the number of highway-rail incidents is in fact increasing for Amtrak, when normalized for train miles:

You can get it for all passenger railroads as well.

And what is interesting from that site is that the trend seems to be going up with regards to injuries, and slightly decreasing for fatalities. Sorry - can't upload pretty charts from work. So, with Ryan's chart, it looks like incidents are on the rise, but deaths resulting from them are being reduced.

But, obviously, the best way to reduce injuries and accidents is to reduce the encounters in the first place.

 

[FormerOBS]

Who had the legal responsibility to notify the railroad? We are talking about people who were supposed to be doing their job.

The job of the woman in the car was to drive safely and get her kid(s) to wherever they were going. So it wasn't her job to call the railroad.

The driver of a rig like that is not your ordinary semi driver. He was more specialized. His job was to move a very large, unconventional item to its destination safely. As part of his job, he needed to be aware of obstructions and potential obstructions, and he needed to deal with potential hazards, like trains doing what trains do. He had an obligation to be sure the way was clear BEFORE he started across the track. Looking down the track is not sufficient, especially when there is a blind curve both north and south. I think he bears the greatest share of the blame, unless this responsibility had been clearly delegated to somebody else, such as his flagman or a representative of his Company at Company headquarters.

The flagman who told the woman that he didn't think they could notify the railroad, showed that he is just plain ignorant and/or stupid, and not qualified to hold that job.

The job of a highway patrol officer is public safety as it relates to highway travel. Highway travel includes grade crossings. If he felt that it was solely the driver's responsibility to contact the railroad, then ordinary prudence would require him to ascertain whether the driver had actually made the contact. It appears that he did not, so he shares the blame.

I think we can all agree that it is not the job of the dispatcher to know about these things through intuition or E.S.P.

I think we can all agree that it is not the job of the engineer to be able to see around blind curves. If anybody had been killed, he'd have been the guy.

The courts will sort it out, and the lawyers are the only ones who will profit.

Tom

Tom

 

[AmtrakBlue]

My assumption was that if she was close enough to roll her window down to talk to the truck driver, she was close enough to see the phone number on the crossing arm.

I would not expect anyone to put themselves or others into additional danger.

She was not talking to the truck driver, who I assume was in the truck. She was talking to a flag man. I suspect the traffic was stopped no where near the little blue sign if they were trying to give the truck room to make the turn.

 

[KmH]

First - reports indicate the truck was not stuck. The truck just could not make the turn with out the trailer wheels on the inside of the turn going off the pavement and the trailer hitting something(s) on the inside of the turn.

The state says - It's not our fault we approved a route the truck could apparently not actually negotiate.

Law enforcement says - notifying the railroad is not our job.

The truck driver, the truck owner, and the escort vehicle operators haven't been heard from.

1. States need better information so they can do a better job of evaluating a route.

2. Law enforcement needs officers that have common sense.

3. Drivers of specialty trucks like the one in this incident need to be (are?) held to a higher standard than the drivers of normal, 18 wheeled, semi-tractor/trailer trucks.

The driver of the truck should have had sufficient experience as to be able to see he could not make the turn, or would have difficulty making the turn, BEFORE he pulled up onto the railroad tracks. Kudos to Amber Keeter, the 19 year old who suggested notifying the railroad to the flagman (who likely worked for the escort car service).

Once he was unable to make the turn on the first attempt and had the tracks blocked, the truck driver, the trooper, and the escort vehicles should all have thought to immediately contact the railroad.

The truck owner - Guy M. Turner Inc. of Greensboro seems to be the most culpable entity in this incident.

The truck driver seems to be 2nd most culpable.

The trooper on the scene seems to have been less than competent to some degree, but like truck drivers LEOs don't have very stringent licensing requirements.

I'm trying to figure out why both escort vehicle were apparently behind the truck.

Tom's (FormerOBS) comments above are pretty much on the mark.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Synopsis: " It's not my job man!"

" Who's going to pay?"

The State Trooper that was working this gig probably needs to find a different line of work that wouldn't involve using common sense, Wal- Mart is always hiring!