Cascades Train Derailment - 07/02/17

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One thinks the train crew was busy trying to rescue there engineer. That would leave the lounge attendant and the Talgo Technician to manage the passengers. Oh let's not forget the plastic picture instructions card in the seat back in front your seat.

All the picture of the passenger that I have seen show a police officer or firefighter in it. Holiday weekend trying to get buses sound like work. Communication is always a issue in any afteraction report.

Megaphone is always a good idea, but then people still would complain they did not hear the messages.

Sounds like WA and OR are complaining a bit early. Let get a final report, toss in afteraction from the "911" groups.

Easy to blame, however the States are also the ones who can fix the issues.
 
However the train still when past a red signal. . .
Is this a confirmed statement of fact or speculation based on how the system is supposed to operate?
Still waiting to see the tape from the forward mounted video camera. Or a report, and not just the last signal the two before it are equal importance.

The new bit of information is the bridge was heading down after three boats past it.

Strange is I recall USCG does not require a railroad bridge to change positions if rail traffic is due within 20 minutes. Not sure how or where that bit came from.....

Maybe Florida East Coast and there automatically bridges...

Something from the NEC maybe Connecticut....
 
It is annoying that US railroads decided to "reinvent the wheel" with PTC. It's well past time to have full automatic train operation like Vancouver Skylink, with someone in the cab mainly to deal with anamalous situations and hit the brakes. I suppose there needs to be some way to keep the engineer awake.
 
It is annoying that US railroads decided to "reinvent the wheel" with PTC. It's well past time to have full automatic train operation like Vancouver Skylink, with someone in the cab mainly to deal with anamalous situations and hit the brakes. I suppose there needs to be some way to keep the engineer awake.
*SkyTrain

If we as a country can't get PTC installed in a timely fashion, you really think we will be able to come up with not only the time but the funds for that? You think it'll be all able to handle mile long freight trains? Cutting cars in and out? Looping/wyeing itself?

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if your trolling in your posts. "US railroads decided to reinvent the wheel with PTC", kinda like suggesting we automate our entire national rail network? How long/how much money would that take to install just the roadside tracking equipment and hardware to be able to handle tracking positions and giving commands to go/slow/stop? What would happen will all the old equipment that's already on the roads?

Maybe in a fantasy world it could happen, but for the time being...
 
... US railroads decided to "reinvent the wheel" with PTC.
To what are you referring?
jb
PTC is a off the self product in Europe. However the equipment is track side based. Americans want a engine based system. So if the track are degraded at some point the system does not have miles equipment not in use.

PTC in Europe is axle count sensors with wayside communication transmitters.

PTC in America was original design as a GPS based on board radio transmitter position and speed. The system work well on single track, but need a lot of work with double track. That was major delay. The radio system designed for the PTC is a major issue also. (Lack of bandwidth, need for transmitters)

If the railroads just when with the Europe model it would of been done already. Don't forget PTC in this country is not new, just the way we decided to do it.
 
It is dangerous to generalize. France in general does not use axle counters for train integrity monitoring. It uses track circuit. Germans are more into axle counting. TVM does most of the track to train communication through coded track circuit channels and track mounted transponders. ETCS2 can be implemented as an overlay on both track circuit based infrastructure or on GPS/axle counter/radio based infrastructure. That is the beauty of that standard.

Oddly enough the most completely deployed PTC system in America, and the only one at present capable of handling multi-track segments with speeds above 110mph, is not GPS based. It is track circuit and track mounted transponder based. It is known as ACSES overlay on PRR coded track circuit based cab signaling system. ;)

Also interestingly, there are a couple of segments of the NEC where both ACSES and ETMS are/will be deployed in parallel so that CSX/NS ETMS equipped locomotives can operate seamlessly on those segments under restricted speeds suitable for ETMS, in parallel with full speed capable ACSES equipped Amtrak trains.. This is not as unusual as it might seem. For example, both TVM430 and ERTMS2 are deployed on the LGV Est in France (between Paris Est and Strasbourg) so that both Classic TGV equipment and German ICE equipment can operate seamlessly on it.
 
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It is dangerous to generalize.
Thank you for the detail breakdown. However I did generalize due my response to the question at hand. Why is our PTC a "reinvention of the wheel". PTC is old technology, so why the delay in meeting the government mandate. Why was this train not equipped with this devise argument. This derailment is another story why the government step in to mandate PTC. None of the passengers should of had this experience, if the train had a working PTC.

Subject to change, still not ready to throw the engineer under the bus. Waiting on the report of the signals at, and the two before the bridge.
 
Actually PTC is a US Government regulatory specification. It can be realized using multiple technologies. FRA requires that each realization be separately evaluated and certified as compliant by it.

Amtrak realizes it using PRR coded track circuit cab signal + ACSES. This technology can be purchased now from multiple vendors.

Most freight railroads and most non-northeastern commuter railroads are realizing it using what is broadly termed as ETMS which uses GPS in conjunction with other position information that may be available and integrates with the extant signaling system that is already in place. Again this is now available from multiple vendors.

California HSR plans to realize it using an ERTMS2 implementation, probably from some European outfit.

You are absolutely correct in stating that the core technical pieces have been around for a while. But typically the devil in these is in the details and that is where each implementation potentially trips up. NYCTA has mightily struggled with deploying CBTC, which they have not quite got to work flawlessly yet, and yet CBTC has been deployed elsewhere quite successfully. The motivation for using a GPS and radio based system was that the cost of installation and operation in a far flung network was believed to be significantly less. that is yet to be seen.

Interestingly railroads like UP already have a form of cab signal deployed on significant parts of their Overland Route. So the mere hookup with their current signal system will already give them position information about trains. I am curious to see how they integrate the GPS based system with their track circuit based signals in the back office system.

To me at least neroden's claim that everything should already be running like Skytrain was a bit off the wall since no main line in Europe or Japan even quite do that, though they can come close. PTC as currently specified by the FRA in the US is certainly not targeted towards such either.
 
Excellent write up in this blog concerning the Talgo degrailment.

http://www.oil-electric.com/

Wednesday, July 12, 2017
Just saw that...very interesting write up. The author, "a retired Instructional Designer, just has a long-time interest in railroading or as he puts it, a "ferroequinologist".

Nevertheless, a comprehensive look at the incident. Official analysis yet to be released.
 
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