Changes to the Cardinal

[Larry H.]

If it were six hours earlier each way it might make for a fair connection to the northbound CN or some of the daily carbondale trains. Same on return and would allow for a st. Louis round trip from effingham if I am reading it right?

 

[Guest_George Harris_*]

Just before discontinuance, here is what the timetable was for the National limited between Indy and Kansas City:

11:25a		  Indianapolis, IN		 6:00p

12:50p		  Terre Haute, IN		  4:35p

1:55p		   Effingham, IL			3:30p

4:10p		   St. Louis, MO			1:35p
4:35p									1:10p

5:04p		   Kikrwood MO			  12:43p
6:53p		   Jefferson City, MO	   10:49a
8:03p		   Sedalia, MO			  9:39a
8:36p		   Warrensberg, MO		  9:03a

10:05p		  Kansas City, MO		  7:45a

Transposing on today's Card timetable, it would seem that the westbound would run about 6 hours earlier and the eastbound about a shade under 6 hours later. And of course it'd run only upto Saint Louis and not to Kansas City, allowing a same day turn of the equipment at STL.

Note the Kansas City times: These made for good Southwest Chief, or whatever its name was then, connections. Unfortunately, due to the condition of the track under Penn Central the westbound frequently did not make the connection. Rode one time between Indianapollis and Washington DC. The track west of Pittsburg was somewhere between rough and downright scarey.

 

[jis]

If it were six hours earlier each way it might make for a fair connection to the northbound CN or some of the daily carbondale trains. Same on return and would allow for a st. Louis round trip from effingham if I am reading it right?

Yes, you'd get a convenient day trip to STL from Indy, Terre Haute and Effingham, if it ran 6 hours earlier westbound and 6 hours later eastbound. There will be reasonable connection from the northbound CONO towards STL and sort of OK from STL to southbound CONO. The connection to and from the TE going to and coming from the south would be rather long at STL. And the connection from/to the CONO coming from/going to the south, towards WAS would be exceedingly long at Effingham. Unfortunately you can't make all of those convenient. Moving the timings of Card to match the old National Limited times would generally improve most connections at STL and Effingham, but would lose the day trip feature from Indy to STL and back.

 

[jis]

Note the Kansas City times: These made for good Southwest Chief, or whatever its name was then, connections. Unfortunately, due to the condition of the track under Penn Central the westbound frequently did not make the connection. Rode one time between Indianapollis and Washington DC. The track west of Pittsburg was somewhere between rough and downright scarey.

That is not at all surprising, since for a period the National Limited carried a through NYP - LAX sleeper that was transferred to/from the Super Chief/El Cap, and later Southwest Limited at KCY.

 

[Chris J.]

Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop

The last train on the route (the National Limited) stopped in Terra Haute and Effingham. Effingham's still in use, but I have clue what condition the tracks are in. It took about 4 1/2 hours in the 1970s.

If a train could do it in 4 1/2 hrs that sounds like pretty good going. Google maps reckons 4hrs 20 on I-70 without stopping.

Did it stop at the same station in Effingham? It looks like the Amtrak station is on a north-south line but St.Louis to Indy would be on an west-east one

 

[Larry H.]

Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop

The last train on the route (the National Limited) stopped in Terra Haute and Effingham. Effingham's still in use, but I have clue what condition the tracks are in. It took about 4 1/2 hours in the 1970s.

If a train could do it in 4 1/2 hrs that sounds like pretty good going. Google maps reckons 4hrs 20 on I-70 without stopping.

Did it stop at the same station in Effingham? It looks like the Amtrak station is on a north-south line but St.Louis to Indy would be on an west-east one

The station is on a cross track and one line from St. Louis and the other from Chicago. The station sits in the wedge between them so that it faces either line. Same nice old brick station still in use in Effingham.

 

[abcnews]

Funny, I always see the Capital Limited as a B & O train, so I had sort of expected a return to St. Louis via the Cap Limited. Never occurred to me that the Cardinal would go in that direction.

I think it's feasible that we might actually see this happen, simply to offer a Mid America train, which seems to be lacking. Chicago is more than saturated with trains - but no (US 50 / I-64/ I-70) mid US train.

I would bet it is not Superliner - and it could easily stay a NY train. After all - this would give excellent rail service from the NorthEast to St. Louis and Mid America. My guess is a daily Crescent/Star consist. Just makes more sense when it comes to available equipment and a New York hub. And the NY base would indeed offer many more riders than an origin in DC. I mean... there are, like 30 or so million people living between NY and Washington, and this would give them direct (thru) service to the mid section of the country. I would guess a daily Silver Star / Crescent consist, based in NY. But what do I know...

 

[jis]

I would bet it is not Superliner - and it could easily stay a NY train. After all - this would give excellent rail service from the NorthEast to St. Louis and Mid America.

What is being considered right now is using Superliners. There is not enough single level equipment available to pull off making the Card daily. And besides those Viewliners on the Card are needed on the Florida trains.

 

[abcnews]

Couple of pictures I took about 1954 in Cincinnati Union Terminal. What a great train!

Wow! Gorgeous photos. I would have never thought that these shots were from 1954. The quality is superb.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Guest]

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....

 

[bretton88]

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....

As much as I would love this (I live in Omaha), It will never happen, no facilities in Omaha for a turnaround and the schedule would be too unwieldy. The best I can hope for is a OMA-KCY-STL train someday, or maybe just a OMA-KCY train that connects with a MORR. I know MO is studying it, so maybe it will happen in my lifetime. I know Nebraska or Iowa wouldn't support said train though.

 

[D T Nelson]

I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.

Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)

 

[Guest_George Harris_*]

Cincinatti - Louisville - Evansville - St. Louis would be somewhere abouve 10 hours in run time, even if best pre-amtrak times could be achieved.

 

[Trogdor]

I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.
Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)

For one, you'd gain no connections by doing so.

The tracks from Indy to St. Louis are in good condition, on a busy CSX mainline, with freight trains running at 60 mph. Passenger trains could probably do 70.

 

[MattW]

What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.

 

[Trogdor]

What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.

The train needs to be cleaned, serviced, and inspected. Minor repairs need to be made. Running the train around a loop or a wye is generally the least of the tasks involved in "turning" a train.

 

[Steve4031]

This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?

 

[Montanan]

This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?

This is one of the expansion possibilities mentioned in the current issue of the NARP newsletter ... along with the restoration of the Desert Wind!

 

[jis]

What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.

Turning a long distance train that has sleepers and diner involves more than flipping seats. It in addition needs servicing the holding tanks, restocking material for sleepers and diner and niceties like cleaning the windows vacuuming the floors etc. And then there is usually the daily mechanical inspection thing that also has to be carried out on each car. Typically LD trains have to be Y-ed also since they do not have cab cars. One also has to leave some slop for possible delays in arrival of the incoming. All in all something like 6 hours seems to be a good practical number for doing all that.

A corridor train (of which Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer are examples) can indeed be turned in much shorter time by proverbially flipping the seats, since they get serviced once a day when they get to the end of their day's run. Some Acelas for example get turned around in Washington DC in platform essentially in an hour. OTOH Regionals have to be backed out and Y-ed in Washington before they can go on a return run, so they take longer to turn.

 

[railiner]

With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?

 

[Chris J.]

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....

Why stop there? Continue on to Denver, Salt Lake City and up to Seattle

 

[kentuckian1977]

Hadn't had a chance to check out the board in a couple of days, so hadn't seen this yet. This would be GREAT news if it happens. I have said forever that I wish the Cardinal was daily, and had the Superliners back. A daily train opens up a lot more convenience in terms of connections, and quick weekend railfan trips, obviously. And, the idea of a reroute to St. Louis is something I'd never heard proposed before, but is certainly a great idea as well. Hope this happens.

 

[Chris J.]

With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?

I'd estimate the new Cardinal would 23hrs from St. Louis to DC (allowing 5 hrs St. Louis to Indy and 18hrs for the current Cardinal schedule from Indy to Washington), compared to currently 28hrs via Chicago, including a layover of over 4 hours. Even if you reduced the layover I don't think it would be quicker via Chicago.

 

[Chris J.]

Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.

Another advantage, not yet mentioned: it reduces the load on Chicago by a bit. And given how full the Chicago platforms are, how full the Chicago waiting rooms are, how busy the maintenance crews and station agent are ... that's going to make life for everyone in Chicago (especially passengers) a little nicer.

I doubt Chicago would get much quieter. I think the Lake Shore and Capitol seem to sell out a lot so I suspect you'd just replace a bunch of passengers making Eagle to NEC connections with different bunch of passengers who currently aren't there at all because the trains east of Chicago are full.

 

[wayman]

Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.

Another advantage, not yet mentioned: it reduces the load on Chicago by a bit. And given how full the Chicago platforms are, how full the Chicago waiting rooms are, how busy the maintenance crews and station agent are ... that's going to make life for everyone in Chicago (especially passengers) a little nicer.

I doubt Chicago would get much quieter. I think the Lake Shore and Capitol seem to sell out a lot so I suspect you'd just replace a bunch of passengers making Eagle to NEC connections with different bunch of passengers who currently aren't there at all because the trains east of Chicago are full.

How does subtracting a train from Chicago not make Chicago quieter? The Capitol and the Lake Shore are full now, and will continue to be full; they're not adding passengers because of this. And the track platform issues, and the maintenance workload, are absolutely going to be both lighter and more regular (same long-distance turning and maintenance every day rather than having this extra train to deal with on certain days and not others).