Ha, that would make sense! I don't know if you saw the subsequent posts in this thread, but the Borealis name was also retracted. It's back to TCMC until the final, actual announcement is made.
St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service
- Thread starter MARC Rider
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Thank you very much for sharing this! It's really great news, especially because at the Great River Rail Committee's (GRRC) March meeting, Commissioner Martinson thought that this agreement might not be ready until their next RCRRA meeting in early April. It is heartening to see that they're pushing to get this started ASAP.
I watched the video and the commissioners reiterated that the start of service would be about 6-8 weeks after the state agreements are signed. This lines up with the need to take a couple weeks (hopefully less) to then wrap up other loose ends and make the official start of service announcement, which MnDOT has previously said would come at least a month before the start of service.
I know that GRRC stakeholders were concerned and alarmed about "only" having a month to promote the new service, so it is possible they'll try to give them as much time to promote as is feasible, within reason (stakeholders wanted at least 6 weeks to promote). I found their concerns to be pretty "small world" & Minnesota-centric, since they seemed to think that ridership would suffer with only a month to promote, disregarding the pent-up demand for this service & that different levels of government in three different states will be promoting the TCMC!
I'm not worried about ridership unless the TCMC ends up having OTP issues, which it shouldn't. Even if the TCMC ends up incurring the same delay the Builder does sometimes when coming into St. Paul (waiting for freight traffic to clear close to SPUD), those delays would probably be in the 5-20 min range. And of course, headed eastbound will be a night-and-day difference (compared to the Builder) with the TCMC originating in St. Paul.
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Here in Washington state, the new Tacoma Sounder-Amtrak facility has only two tracks and serves I think 38 trains-a-day, and that's without making a lot of use of the second track. They don't like to have Amtrak trains meet there because two trains at one time makes it nearly impossible for the Amtrak station agents.
west point
Engineer
Didn't Amtrak petition to close a street that goes thru the middle of the repair facility?
SPUD has two thru tracks serviced by only one platform -
a disaster of sorts for handling two trains in such tight space !
That tight space is also amplified by the single access to that one platform boarding through the Great Hall - - -
Stairs - Escalators - and one Elevator for those with mobility issues.
While it is extremely rare for #7 & #8 to be at SPUD simultaneously having a TCMC 2nd train or other
Duluth? St. Cloud? train operation could be dicey if another platform section is not built.
If there is no distinct separation - the possibility of getting on the wrong train could be devastating !
SPUD will definitely need upgrading in both the waiting area of the Great Hall and the track platforms !
west point
Engineer
SPUD facility needs to be improved to the point that no use is made of the old Midway station to be a fully functioning terminal. That means do what is necesseary to cut/add coaches and PV's on the Empire Builder, station a yard switcher there, whether Minnestoa Commercial or Amtrak (I don't care which), handle at least another corridor train whether it be from Duluth or Madison, as well as coach cleaners, toilet dumps, commissary to restock, and car watering. That should have been done in the initial design, not simply a vanity way station it now is.
TransitTyrant
Service Attendant
You’re link appears to be broken, do you have another by chance?
Not to preempt Silophant from responding, but I did find the link since I noticed this one was broken. Here's a general link to their March 19th meeting (see agena, packet, video, etc.) and here is a direct link to the video.
Having read through all the materials + watched the video, it is more clear that the commissioners really wanted to preserve access to SPUD for all types of special train movements and events, from Train Day, to I think the 261 (?), to pretty much anything that is not Amtrak. Commissioners + the materials also made clear that they viewed their original agreement with Amtrak from about a decade ago to be unfavorable, and they used this opportunity to re-negotiate it. Honestly, I had forgotten--silly me--that the County actually owned all of the tracks in addition to the depot. Makes more sense why they were able to + wanted to have more control and leverage.
I am curious as to what kind of cars are going to be used on that 2nd train ( TCMC) ---
Since the trips both directions will be for the most part in daylight hours sleepers would not be a prime concern ---
But then maybe a viewliner or 2 ?
Hoping to see a consist/configuration of coaches cafe and a business car a baggage car ?
As for motive power of course one locomotive maybe two in a push---pull ?
Heck I am good at predictions - throwing darts blindfolded at a revolving pinata dart board ! LOL !
Since the trips both directions will be for the most part in daylight hours sleepers would not be a prime concern ---
But then maybe a viewliner or 2 ?
Hoping to see a consist/configuration of coaches cafe and a business car a baggage car ?
As for motive power of course one locomotive maybe two in a push---pull ?
Heck I am good at predictions - throwing darts blindfolded at a revolving pinata dart board ! LOL !
I would guess initially it would be whatever they can pull together, coaches and a cafe most likely. The EB takes 8:26 (according to the schedule) to get to MSP, leaving at 3:05 PM, so it is really too short a route for an overnight sleeper. Most likely, west bound, it would leave CUS 8 or 9 AM and arrive in MSP at about 4:30 or 5:30 PM, so definitely no sleeper, but it absolutely needs to serve lunch.
When the new Airo trainsets arrive, they would probably use one (or two) of them.
Various sources (see earlier in this thread for more details) have said that the TCMC will be using, to start with, Horizon cars. Others have said that, since the Hiawatha (sometimes/traditionally?) has some sort of a cafe/lounge car, and the TCMC will be an extension of a Hiawatha trip, that it will or at least *should* have a cafe car of some type--especially given the much longer trip. However, others have said that there aren't many available Horizon cafe/food service cars, so we'll see. For example, 3 of the food service Horizon cars have been leased to Caltrans since 2013, though some on the Empire Builder Facebook page have claimed Amtrak's recently asked for them "back." (could be hearsay 
)
Given how much longer the trip on the TCMC will be compared to the Hiawatha & associated longer-distance travelers with more luggage, I agree that there should be a baggage car of some type. In addition to just the distance, it is likely that many college students, who often bring lots of luggage to/from home and school, will use the TCMC. I know the Hiawatha has traditionally had baggage space, including for bikes, though the venerable 'cabbage' (cab car-baggage) cars, but those are being retired slowly (?) and regardless won't be used for the TCMC.
)Given how much longer the trip on the TCMC will be compared to the Hiawatha & associated longer-distance travelers with more luggage, I agree that there should be a baggage car of some type. In addition to just the distance, it is likely that many college students, who often bring lots of luggage to/from home and school, will use the TCMC. I know the Hiawatha has traditionally had baggage space, including for bikes, though the venerable 'cabbage' (cab car-baggage) cars, but those are being retired slowly (?) and regardless won't be used for the TCMC.
TransitTyrant
Service Attendant
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Administator
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Currently there is no plan to use Airos in the Midwest state service. They will use whatever equipment the states involved come up with. For now at least it will essentially be Hiawatha sets. The way the train is scheduled it will need two sets to operate. Of course the states involved could choose to have Amtrak acquire a few Airos for them. But nothing of the sort has happened yet.
Official announcement from the GRRC about the operating and lease agreements for SPUD between Ramsey County & Amtrak being approved earlier this week: https://www.greatriverrail.org/post/amendments-approved-second-train-launch-date-closer
For those keeping track, per the GRRC's email this morning that functioned as their "2023 Annual Report," here are some key steps in starting the service that have been accomplished:
For those keeping track, per the GRRC's email this morning that functioned as their "2023 Annual Report," here are some key steps in starting the service that have been accomplished:
- Amtrak has committed that equipment will be available when the service begins.
- A System Safety Plan was submitted to the Federal Railroad Administration.
- An agreement was reached on operating cost sharing among the three states. Minnesota and Wisconsin will each contribute 35% of the operating cost not covered by fares, Illinois will contribute 30%.
- Agreements approved between Amtrak and Ramsey County.
- A route and service plan (nearly complete).
- Service Agreements between Amtrak and Canadian Pacific (the owner of the rail line), between Amtrak and the states of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois, the owner of St. Paul Union Depot, and between Wisconsin and the Federal Railroad Administration.
moselman66
Train Attendant
Thanks for finding/posting this. Those are some big hurdles which were cleared. Not that any of them were likely to become an impass and kill or jeopardize the TCMC itself, but instead the sorts of nagging issues which can make things drag out. And when seemingly-inevitable things drag out there's always a chance for some unexpected torpedo to blow things up....some funding hits an expiration date, a new pandemic, an unexpected lawsuit, a bombshell merger or bankrupcy of some key party, a big political regime change, etc. It's massively easier to survivie those sorts of things if you're already operating versus if you aren't.
I think there's every reason to be optimistic for an annoucement in the next several weeks...
You are welcome, and I agree! So, so much easier for this service to survive future shocks if it just...gets...running! And once it does, barring catastrophe or equipment shortages, the positive side of me thinks it's going to put up gangbusters ridership numbers, just far beyond what was forecast. The pent-up demand for the 2nd frequency in this regional corridor is probably greater that of any other corridor in the nation, save the Pennsylvanian, which I'd guess has somewhat similar dynamics.
So, even just having 6-9 months of smooth operation and good ridership would go a long, long way towards it not being abruptly cut due to, cough, potential political regime changes. Will also be VERY important in showing MN lawmakers--who will have to approve new operating funds once the first two years of funds are used--that state-supported Amtrak service is, well, actually worth supporting.
What will train numbers be ? 9 & 10 ?
moselman66
Train Attendant
Not too likely in my opinion -- those were North Coast Hiawatha numbers, and given the fairly shot of restoring that I doubt they'd tie those up. Plus low digits are not generally used for state-supported routes.
Much more likely, if uninspired, is use of the exiting Hiawatha numbers the TCMC will be an expansion of. Westbound would be 334, the 11am CHI-MKE trip. Eastbound would be 340, the MKE-CHI arriving at 7:14pm.
What was the North Star's numbers when running just between St Paul and Duluth in the 1980's ?
Maybe then 834 and 840. Oklahoma trains are 821 & 822.
Right now, the two Hiawatha sets make a total of 7 round trips per day, each swap their overnight positions between Chicago and Milwaukee.
I assume the TCMC will get 2 of its own trainsets since they need a cafe car and not to be Ventures, leaving the 2 Hiawatha trains sets doing 6 round trips per day. Be interesting as to how that will affect overnight lay up positions.
Interesting that Illiois is paying 30%. I would have assumed for the portion beyond Milwaukee that Wisconsin and Minnesota would each pay 50% and Illinois nothing.
Maybe then 834 and 840. Oklahoma trains are 821 & 822.
Right now, the two Hiawatha sets make a total of 7 round trips per day, each swap their overnight positions between Chicago and Milwaukee.
I assume the TCMC will get 2 of its own trainsets since they need a cafe car and not to be Ventures, leaving the 2 Hiawatha trains sets doing 6 round trips per day. Be interesting as to how that will affect overnight lay up positions.
Interesting that Illiois is paying 30%. I would have assumed for the portion beyond Milwaukee that Wisconsin and Minnesota would each pay 50% and Illinois nothing.
Just a WAG ?
Reference this LINK:
http://kevinkorell.com/btn/numt0001.htm
There is already a 337 and 338 between Chicago-Milwaukee-Chicago
An extension of that existing route - TCMC
The existing Chicago Milwaukee could use 337 - 300 hundred series from the Hiawatha Chicago Milwaukee
the 7 a stub section of from the Empire Builder
338 - 300 hundred series from the Hiawatha Milwaukee Chicago
the 8 a stub section of from the Empire Builder
Or simply just throw something new against the wall and see if it sticks !
Not my job to blow the horn AND NAME TRAIN TRIPS but should it jump the tracks - I am to blame ! LOL !
moselman66
Train Attendant
This may only be a partial history based on some quick combing of timetimes on The Museum of Amtrak Timtables website -- anybody else feel free to jump in
Empire Builder ran CHI-MSP-HVR-SEA as 7 + 8
North Coast Hiawatha ran CHI-MSP-BIL-SEA as 9 + 10
Arrowhead ran MSP-DLH as 760 + 761
In later 1977 or early 1978 the Empire Builder and North Coast Hiawatha were combined into a single daily train CHI-MSP, alternating via the Havre route as Empire Builder four days per week as 7 + 8, and via the Billings rout three days pwer week as 17 + 18
The second CHI-MSP train continued to use 9 + 10 but only ran as far as MSP and was billed the Twin Cities Hiawatha.
Arrowhead contined MSP-DLH.
The wtihn about a year in 1978 the CHI-MSP Twin Cities Hiawatha was combined with the Arrowhead to operat daily CHI-MSP-DLH using 9 + 10 and billed as the North Star. That name...and the legacy numbers 9 + 10 interited from when the second CHI-MSP train was the NCH, continued on even as the train was truncted from CHI-MSP-DLH to just being daily MSP-DLH in 1981, and then prior to being shut down in 1985 it only ran MSP-DLH on the weekends.
So there IS history of 9+10 being used on CHI-MSP even as that second CHI-MSP train no longer headed west on the NCH route. Still kind of doubtful they pull that back here, but you never know. If the NCH every does come back it's questionable if these particluar CHI departure and arrival times would be the ones continuing to (or from) the NCH routing, but who knows if that's even on their minds.
I did find it kind of cool that Amtrak did indeed for a short time use Twin Cities Hiawath for a local CHI-MKE-MSP train. Maybe history will repeat itself.
Excellent history to resurrect the old train numbers !!!!!This may only be a partial history based on some quick combing of timetimes on The Museum of Amtrak Timtables website -- anybody else feel free to jump in
Empire Builder ran CHI-MSP-HVR-SEA as 7 + 8
North Coast Hiawatha ran CHI-MSP-BIL-SEA as 9 + 10
Arrowhead ran MSP-DLH as 760 + 761
In later 1977 or early 1978 the Empire Builder and North Coast Hiawatha were combined into a single daily train CHI-MSP, alternating via the Havre route as Empire Builder four days per week as 7 + 8, and via the Billings rout three days pwer week as 17 + 18
The second CHI-MSP train continued to use 9 + 10 but only ran as far as MSP and was billed the Twin Cities Hiawatha.
Arrowhead contined MSP-DLH.
The wtihn about a year in 1978 the CHI-MSP Twin Cities Hiawatha was combined with the Arrowhead to operat daily CHI-MSP-DLH using 9 + 10 and billed as the North Star. That name...and the legacy numbers 9 + 10 interited from when the second CHI-MSP train was the NCH, continued on even as the train was truncted from CHI-MSP-DLH to just being daily MSP-DLH in 1981, and then prior to being shut down in 1985 it only ran MSP-DLH on the weekends.
So there IS history of 9+10 being used on CHI-MSP even as that second CHI-MSP train no longer headed west on the NCH route. Still kind of doubtful they pull that back here, but you never know. If the NCH every does come back it's questionable if these particluar CHI departure and arrival times would be the ones continuing to (or from) the NCH routing, but who knows if that's even on their minds.
I did find it kind of cool that Amtrak did indeed for a short time use Twin Cities Hiawath for a local CHI-MKE-MSP train. Maybe history will repeat itself.
View attachment 36272
Using the LINK I posted earlier train numbers 9 & 10 are still open for assignment.
Interesting to note that train #9 was scheduled to leave CHI 11:40 am arrive MSP 8:35 pm
----- 7 hours and 55 minutes
Today's #7 scheduled to leave 3:05 and arrive 10:56 pm
----- 7 hours and 51 minutes
Same route stops - a difference of 4 minutes on paper ***
*** of course on paper and reality don't jive - those freight trains changing the timely equation !
I remember in the early 80's taking many trips to Duluth on the North Star with my fellow employees
$26.00 round trip with Lunch on a Launch (boat) tour of the St. Louis river harbor - and later a tour
of the Glensheen (murder) Mansion and a on your own dime dinner at the top of the Radisson.
Then the trip back to cities - what a great outing !
Oh to do that again and again - - - there was a Cafe car but we where well fed before that.
The closest thing to that in later years were the few charter trips on the 261 steam excursions (261.com)
The PRIAA-209 Pennsylvanian is numbered 42/43, not a variation of the 3 digit Keystone train numbers, as though it were a Chicago train.
Like the upcoming TCMC, it's uses its own equipment, not a Keystone set, actually the Palmetto's consist (not state supported).
Like the upcoming TCMC, it's uses its own equipment, not a Keystone set, actually the Palmetto's consist (not state supported).
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