Montanan
OBS Chief
do a little more research, and you'll find that your statement's extraordinarily inaccurate.
Class 1 Passenger Service
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MikefromCrete
Engineer
Santa Fe's trains held up very well until A-Day. The number of trains dropped, but service levels remained high until the end.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
FEC is not a Class 1 railroad. The designation is based on revenue, not on how good their tracks are.
BNSFboy
Train Attendant
But they can still pioneer passenger rail just the same, sometimes Class 1s look to there little brethren for some examples on how to do things.
rusty spike
OBS Chief
Hauling freight, be it commodities, merchandise, stacks, auto racks or whatever, is a specialized business, just like hauling passengers is a specialized business. It's why Fedex doesn't fly pax with their cargo, and Southwest doesn't fly cargo with their pax. Nor would J. B Hunt be interested in operating Greyhound or Megabus.
The idea that BNSF or UP might run pax trains is an intriguing one indeed, but, even if they did, it will never be a comprehisive national passenger railroad experience of yesteryear or even present-day Amtak. I cannot see the profit sturcture there with the fare that they would have to charge. However how about a reverse manuever of 1971, Have the federal government (Amtrak) pay a fixed amount, cash, tax subsidies, etc., to the freight RR's to take the rolling stock and and other property off their hands, with guarantees that the RR's will run pax service for X number of years.
Well having said all that, it is still an intriiguing idea.
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NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Santa Fe maintained a very high standard of service right up until the end and in fact, after May 1, 1971, Santa Fe only permitted Amtrak to continue to use the "Super Chief" name so long as those standards were maintained.
But by 1974, service had declined and the train was renamed the "Southwest Limited" Only after the Superliners arrived and with new equipment……the name was changed to Southwest "Chief".
Same with the "Texas Chief".......Amtrak was forced to rename it the "Lone Star"
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MikefromCrete
Engineer
FEC's interest seems more in developing real estate it owns along the route, but it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out. Still, I doubt if any of the Big Seven (BNSF, UP, CSX, NS, CN, CP, KCS) have any interest in getting back into the passenger train business. They're in business to make money, which they do rather handsomely with freight haulage, while passenger trains don't make money. Back in the old days, i.e. long before jet airplanes and interstate highways, money was made by hauling mail and express. High standards on the better trains were maintained to impress their freight clients. Today, any good CEO worth his salt has his own private jet. Times have changed and we're not going back to the old days.
I have to agree with this....Santa Fe, as well as UP(!), and SCL may have tried to eliminate money losing operations, as any smart business would, but what remained they ran with pride. Even the other roads, IMHO, arguably ran what they had left better than what Amtrak has done in many cases. While Penn Central was notoriously of "the passengers be damned" attitude, even they showed some pride in the operation of their flagship Broadway Limited, as well as the new Metroliners.
I got this from actually RIDING Santa Fe trains. Can't speak to trains like the Tulsan, but rode the San Diegan regularly and they were fine trains. No dining or sleepers, but they didn't need it. Good lounge service. The Super Chief/El Capitan looked like it was brand new, it was so well maintained and the service was, indeed, superb. I also rode the SWC in the 80s just before and after Santa Fe re-authorized use of Chief name, and it was not even in the same league as the Super Chief. Just typical Amtrak that we all know and love.
I also rode SP trains, and there literally no comparison. What you describe does, indeed, describe SP. But not Santa Fe.
What trains are you talking about, specifically? After the Chief came off (which the Santa Fe would have preferred to have kept, but the ICC told them to keep 23/24) the only trains Santa Fe had were:
Super Chief/El Capitan
23/24 (former Grand Canyon)
Denver-La Junta connection
San Diegan service
San Francisco Chief
Texas Chief
The Tulsan.
Read Fred Frailey's "Twilight of the Great Trains" for a good and accurate view of various railroads service in the final days. Instead of whatever it was you did read.
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Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
The train may not have been the Super Chief or Texas Chief, as I have previously noted. the book does not specify which trains they were talking about, just that they were overnight and used to have sleepers and a diner. The time was in 1969. I think the train was probably the Grand Canyon or San Francisco Chief. It may also have been the Chief just before it was cut.
I guarantee you it wasn't the Chief or the San Franscisco Chief. Those trains kept their standards up to the end. 23/24 was an all-stops "accomodation" train and had been downgraded to minimal service and did not carry sleepers all the way, just sleepers out of LA that were transferred to the San Francisco Chief at Barstow. It had a lunch-counter diner. It ran on the same route as the Super Chief/El Capitan (except 17/18 skipped Topeka) so you cannot say there was not a train with good service on the same route, unlike SP's Sunset.
If it had been the last LD train serving that route, you can be sure it would have been on a level with the Chiefs.
That your friends chose to take an accomodation train when the Super Chief/El Cap was available to the same points, I cannot speak to.
I must emphasize I speak from first-hand experience riding Santa Fe, not stuff I heard.
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What book are you referring to?
I cannot envision a scenario where regular service LD trains will ever make money in this country.
But I can see a way to get the Class 1's to bring back passenger service in a big way.
-Tax breaks-
The freight RR's do not need to make money off Pax trains, they simply need to save more money than what it would cost to operate. The tax breaks could either come from a reduction in corporate taxes or property taxes on the line in question or some mix of the two.
I can see reasons for Republicans and Democrats to love and hate this idea and I am sure their is a price at which the Class ones will jump at the chance to run a bunch of LD trains.
What I don't know is if this is actually a good idea or even if their is enough interest to actually push it.
But I can see a way to get the Class 1's to bring back passenger service in a big way.
-Tax breaks-
The freight RR's do not need to make money off Pax trains, they simply need to save more money than what it would cost to operate. The tax breaks could either come from a reduction in corporate taxes or property taxes on the line in question or some mix of the two.
I can see reasons for Republicans and Democrats to love and hate this idea and I am sure their is a price at which the Class ones will jump at the chance to run a bunch of LD trains.
What I don't know is if this is actually a good idea or even if their is enough interest to actually push it.
I was a frequent traveler on many Santa Fe Trains from 1962 to 1971. The statement "They say that Amtrak's SWC by the 1980s were already better than ATSF pax trains 1967-1971. I forgot what exact trains they talked about but proPeople who took their trains post-1967 found the service quite horrible, commenting that most LD and nearly all SD trains had no sleepers or diners and just a cafe serving cold cuts" is totally false. Even the Grand Canyon carried a Counter Lounge car with full meals. I traveled on the Super Chief, San Franscisco Chief, Texas Chief, Grand Canyon, San Diegans in the 1967-1971 period. The service was always excellent with great food and service in the Dining Cars, multiple comfortable Sleeping Cars with a wider variety of accomodations than most other railroads including roomettes, bedrooms, compartment, and drawing room most of which could be reserved en suite. The schedules were very dependable. I can say from my own 41 year experience of traveling on every route and train that Amtrak has operated, that Amtrak has never operated a train equal to the quality of trains operated by the Santa Fe right through April 30, 1971.
Amen.
henryj
Conductor
Passenger trains do not lose as much as Amtrak says they do. Amtrak just loads them up with it's bloated overhead. However, passenger trains never really made that much even in the good old days. Now there is no way a class one would invest the billions of dollars it would cost to start up service, not to mention the added liability and the added burden of staffing a passenger department and stations and on and on for a service that might break even at best. FEC is publicizing there proposed service, but I will believe it when I see it. And it's a short corridor type service, not a LD train. But it still requires billions in investment dollars to start it up. I think they did that to stall Amtrak from trying to use their tracks and ultimately they will seek state and federal help. Europe has some private operators, but the tracks and basic infrastructure are still state owned and maintained and it's mostly a passenger operation whereas the US tracks are mostly privately owned and the traffic is primarily freight oriented.
johnny.menhennet
Conductor
Ugghhh get over yourself and contribute something useful to the discussion.
BNSFboy
Train Attendant
Very nice idea that could be something that could be pushed.
henryj
Conductor
Well little Johnny, I did the research and looked at the costs and that is my conclusion. You can do the same and see what you come up with. In my humble opinion there is no way that 15 LD trains lose 530 million dollars a year. As for contributing something, I believe I did. I explained to you why no for profit freight railroad would have anything to do with passenger trains. If you want to stay in your little fantasy world that is your business.
Ryan
Court Jester
Seconded. Until you can actually name some of those "bloated overhead" costs and how they could effectively be reduced, you're just making noise. There's a whole thread filled with open questions if you want to talk about Amtrak accounting.
Ispolkom
Engineer
This really is a great book, and gives a notion of the wide variety in quality of service on trains in the 60s. Not every railroad was the Santa Fe, and not every train was the Super Chief.
No, they need to be able to make more money off their investment in passenger trains than they could by any other investment. A passenger train that earns $1000 profit per trip, for instance, is still a loser if a freight train in that slot could earn $1500 profit. What's BNSF going to want to run on the Hi-Line, a passenger train or another unit train with tank cars or oil drilling supplies?
No, you pulled some numbers out of your rear end and declared your data to be more accurate than Amtrak's.
henryj
Conductor
Well Ryan, apparently you are living in that same fantasy world.
That is a great point, "breaking even" or making less money than that slot is worth would obviously not be enough. That is why I said I am sure their is some number of tax breaks + tickets which will be worth their while. Though I have no clue if that would be better, cheaper, or more efficent than the current service we have today.
I was simply giving a scenario where I could envision the Class 1's getting back into the passenger rail game. Which I should also add does not mean they have to deal with passengers. They could contract out some or all of that to another entity (like Amtrak) and focus entirely on moving the train from point A to B.
BNSFboy
Train Attendant
Take it easy guys, this is just a nice discussion over passenger trains in Class 1 railroads. Not a argument over Amtrak accounting.
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