Crescent Runs Red Signal?

[TVRM610]

Train Orders is claiming the Crescent (20) ran a red signal east of Charlottesville. Pretty serious problem.. can anyone confirm this or add details?

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3489833

 

[chakk]

The local newspaper in Charlottesville mentions the multi-hour delay but not the cause of the delay. There is also a report that 8(6) overran a stop signal near Minneapolis, then backed up behind the stop signal without a clearance. That also added a multi-hour delay.

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[OlympianHiawatha]

I understand in a case like this the Engineer and both Conductors are immediately relieved of duty and likely find their railroad careers coming to an end?

 

[xyzzy]

Crews are relieved of duty on the spot and usually suspended pending an investigation. Punishment is TBD, could be a lengthy suspension, could be termination.

 

[Guest SRR]

What is Crescent doing East of CVS? It is a

North and South route. The Cardinal goes East and West.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

What is Crescent doing East of CVS? It is a

North and South route. The Cardinal goes East and West.

Look at the timetable. http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/420/870/Crescent-Schedule-060914.pdf

It takes the same route as the Cardinal between CVS and NYP

 

[Ryan]

Actually, the two are on different tracks at CVS (that's why the station has two platforms). The Cardinal is on the BBRR, the Crescent is on NS.

The two join up in Orange, VA (between C-ville and Culpepper) and then share the same route to NYP.

Your larger point is still valid - the train doesn't run perfectly North/South.

In pictures:



The Crescent leaves CVS on the tracks heading NE, roughly paralleling 29, then going through Barboursville on the way to Orange.

The Cardinal leaves CVS headed east along I-64, then turns NE, goes through Gordonsville before heading to Orange.

 

[daveyb99]

Crews are relieved of duty on the spot and usually suspended pending an investigation. Punishment is TBD, could be a lengthy suspension, could be termination.

This is stupid. Airline Pilots are not 'replaced and suspended' for a mistake ... in fact, a good safety culture fosters a non-punative reporting system, which all airlines have had in place for decades.

So if an engineer happens to slightly overrun a red, as opposed to blowing through at full speed with no cares, it is treated as a termination offense? wow. And the conductor too? Double Wow ...

 

[jis]

Crews are relieved of duty on the spot and usually suspended pending an investigation. Punishment is TBD, could be a lengthy suspension, could be termination.

This is stupid. Airline Pilots are not 'replaced and suspended' for a mistake ... in fact, a good safety culture foster a non-punative reporting system, which all airlines have had in place for decades.

So if an engineer happens to slightly overrun a red, as opposed to blowing through at full speed with no cares, it is treated as a termination offense? wow. And the conductor too? Double Wow ...

Shall we not jump the gun, set up a strawman assuming the worst and then "Wow" about it? Let us see what actually happens. Of course, if they are back at work in three days, this place is going to go up in a flame fest about that too. Remember what happened after the Bala Cynwyd incident?

Airline pilots and ATC staff are also temporarily put on leave pending resolution of certain issues after a seeming serious infraction. The equivalent of a SPAD in railroads for air situation would be something like runway incursion or an ATC caused near miss.

 

[TVRM610]

Running a stop indication is beyond serious..... I would say it's termination worthy.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Pilots usually are fired also for landing @ the wrong airport and being under the influence or caught doing something else stupid like letting a civilian into the cockpit!

As was said,Blowing a Red Stop Signal and then Backing up without Clearance is grounds for termination as far as I'm concerned!

 

[SP&S]

Running a red is one of the most serious offenses there is.

A couple of years ago I was on 14 between SBA and SLO when we came to a quick - but non emergency - stop. We waited for close to two hours with a "signal problem". The signal problem turned out to be the CS headed southbound that had ran a red and entered our block. I don't even want to think what would have happened if somebody hadn't caught that mistake.

 

[seat38a]

Crews are relieved of duty on the spot and usually suspended pending an investigation. Punishment is TBD, could be a lengthy suspension, could be termination.

This is stupid. Airline Pilots are not 'replaced and suspended' for a mistake ... in fact, a good safety culture fosters a non-punative reporting system, which all airlines have had in place for decades.

So if an engineer happens to slightly overrun a red, as opposed to blowing through at full speed with no cares, it is treated as a termination offense? wow. And the conductor too? Double Wow ...

Maybe because this can be the end result???

A train can't exactly avoid a head on collision by diving or climbing. Also, as far as I know neither does it have radar to let it know how far the train is ahead of it.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The same thing happened in Chicago in 1972 when an Illinois Central commuter train overshot a station and then backed up when the Conductor gave the Engineer permission without clearing through dispatch or protecting the rear of his train. If that is not bad enough, when the train overshot, it gave clear signal to an express commuter train following behind and the results were 45 killed and over 300 injured.

I remember watching live coverage on TV as stations just began to put into service the live feed mini-cams allowing reporters to go live from the field without having to send film back for processing.

 

[SouthernServesTheSouth]

Early in the 40's my dad was a fireman working out of Washington Terminal. He said there was a SOB inspector or some such title that would hide near a signal on a steep grade and change the signal from green to red just as the engine was approaching the signal. This was done to see if engineer would try to creep pass. It was a pain to try to get a freight moving

on that grade.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Early in the 40's my dad was a fireman working out of Washington Terminal. He said there was a SOB inspector or some such title that would hide near a signal on a steep grade and change the signal from green to red just as the engine was approaching the signal. This was done to see if engineer would try to creep pass. It was a pain to try to get a freight moving

on that grade.

This is still done today though the Inspector will set out a Red Flag and in fairness it goes out in time for the Engineer to see it and safely stop. It happened when I was on the Sunset a couple years ago in west Texas. Shortly after we stopped the Inspector radioed for the Engineer to advance his train past the grade crossings and that they were going to have a little chat; the Engineer passed the test.

 

[xyzzy]

Yes, banner tests are common - and for good reason.

 

[Ryan]

In addition to Chatsworth and the IC accidents mentioned above, there's also Chase and the Capitol Limited/MARC collision as examples of what happens when you blow through a red signal.

 

[seat38a]

On the Surfliner, there are 3+ conductors on board. Do all the conductors keep track of the signals or just one?

 

[jis]

On the Surfliner, there are 3+ conductors on board. Do all the conductors keep track of the signals or just one?

There would be a single Conductor in charge of the train. The rest would be Assistant Conductors or playing the role of one.

 

[VentureForth]

Ridiculous how a conductor from INSIDE the train is responsible for calling signals he/she cannot see.

 

[neroden]

Regarding those Metrolink photos, it goes to show how terrible the FRA's confused and misguided concept of "crash safety" is. Thankfully we're going to get some PTC soon.

Then maybe modern crash energy management will finally replace obsolete "throw in some concrete blocks and some more steel" in the FRA railcar design standards.

 

[jis]

Ridiculous how a conductor from INSIDE the train is responsible for calling signals he/she cannot see.

The Conductor is supposed to "acknowledge" the call made by the Engineer, and then ascertain that the signal is being followed. This can be done without seeing the signal itself. Naturally, one cannot verify what one cannot see, and no one expects anyone to do that. It is the followup action that needs to be ascertained and that is what the Conductor is expected to do. So I don;t see anything ridiculous about that.

Regarding those Metrolink photos, it goes to show how terrible the FRA's confused and misguided concept of "crash safety" is. Thankfully we're going to get some PTC soon.

Actually those Toronto Hawker Siddeley rivet lozenges are worst of both the worlds. They neither have the more robust car body required by FRA nor have CEM. They run in grandfathered mode at present and are probably the weakest of any passenger car in operation in the US today. That is why Metrolink got those new cab cars in a hurry.

 

[chakk]

Conductors on Amtrak LD trains do have copies of all slow orders provided to the engineer, and will often remind the engineer that a slow order section is coming up. The conductors gnerally monitor all radio communications between engineer and dispatcher and copy down unforeseen slow orders that the dispatcher might issue to the engineer while enroute.

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[me_little_me]

There's a YouTube video of two freights facing each other. One is stopped before the switch. The other is proceeding through the switch to another track. There is not enough clearance and the freights collide. Stopped train running through the red? Could be.