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Linda T

Lead Service Attendant
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Anyone following FB has probably seen the post by Tim Chandler about the Omaha Police boarding the Zephyr. They woke up passengers in the sleepers and demanded answers to questions. I know this is not the first time that this has happened to the Zephyr in Omaha, and I'm curious what our rights as American citizens are. Here's the other case from March of last year http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2686148/posts

Suppose for a moment they don't have search warrants... If I've honestly done nothing wrong and I say "NO, you can't search my things without a warrant." that makes me look guilty as hell. If I give them permission to it just makes a mess out of everything, they put their grimy hands on unmentionables, etc. But would they have the right to force me to de-train if I said no? Obviously the Zephyr would move on, I would suppose. What legal rights does a rider have, or do I just have to succumb to them and allow them to ask me anything and paw through my stuff?

I won't be taking the Zephyr again, but I will be taking the Texas Eagle from CHI to LA and the Empire Builder from SEA to CHI. I'm wondering if we're more liable to be stopped close to the borders? Thanks!

Linda T.
 
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The California Zephyr is a notorious drug hauler with mules boarding in California and transporting product east. Station Agents in California are usually pretty good about catching suspicious behavior, such as Mexicans buying 1 way cash tickets and carrying large amounts of luggage and often the trap to catch them is sprung at Reno.

On my last trip east, 4 undercover Reno Vice were waiting outside our Sleeper and displayed badges to the Attendant as soon as she opened the door; I was standing right with her. They quickly boarded and hauled off a Mexican couple with 2 GIANT suitcases and proceeded to interrogate them. The Attendant, another passenger and I were right there on the platform and the Vice made no effort to move us out of the way, even when the suitcases were popped and found to be crammed with bundles of narcotics. As the cuffs came out and snapped into place on the perps I felt like I was part of the cast on a TV cop show.
 
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I won't tell you what to do, but I can tell you this, there would be no search, and there would be no questions answered. Failing to participate in their comedy drama does not make me look guilty, it makes me look like I just got out of bed in the middle of the night and am pissed about it. I get they're just doing their job, but their job sucks, I just don't agree with playing the "papers please" game. Unless they have reasonable suspicion or a warrant (and, they know who they're looking for already, or they wouldn't be on board) they're not getting me to open anything. A right not exercised, is a right lost. Frankly, time of day is irrelevant. I just don't play well with others I guess......
 
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Here's a case from Havre, where charges were dropped against a woman who was dragged off the Empire Builder without probable cause. The charges were dropped even though she was, as it happens, smuggling dope. It doesn't seem that she got her marijuana back, which seems sort of unfair.

IANAL, but I'd never agree to a search of my possessions. The 4th amendment is one of my favorites, and I'm a stubborn and often unpleasant man. What would happen? I don't know, but I doubt the officers would look good bringing in a fat, middle-aged white guy who has enough money to sue them.

ETA: Here's a case where a defendant gave permission to search. It didn't turn out well for him, even though he might have been intimidated into giving permission.
 
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What are your rights? Good Question.

First ... I would think since you booked that space, it is yours and NOT "public space". Courts have alread ruled the rear of a rented limo needs a warrant. Another famous case was David Crosby and his dressing room - NOT a public space. I am not familiar with any cases dealing with a "Roomette on AMTRAK", but I would image you can make the same arguments as those I cited.

As for saying NO to a consent to search. DO IT. I first must assume you have nothing to hide, so make the police describe their probable cause to a judge to obtain a warrant. Who cares what they think (hint: I have a strong law enforcement background and never had a problem with someone saying No. And i do understand your fear as well). If they decide to make a warrantless search, object but comply and document their information - then file a complaint and maybe a consider a civil right case.
 
I understand from a friend who was searched at Reno that they promised if he refused the warrantless search, they would take him off the train to wait for the warrant. Not wanting to watch the train leave without him, he capitulated at that point. They found nothing, and let him continue, but he is still steaming over it. His only crime was to have a gray beard and t-shirt (probably with a liberal slogan on it, if I know him). He recommends you travel with a minimum of cash (what they are looking for, along with the drugs) and use credit cards for everything.
 
One would think that those cops along the CZ's route would coordinate...after the "routine" searches at Reno & Grand Junction, you wouldn't think that there's be anyone left aboard worth busting!
 
Okay, I just pulled out the timetable book and found the following, starting with the third paragraph under Security:

Amtrak has in place a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures aimed at improving passenger rail security, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis. These include uniformed police officers and K-9 units in stations and on trains, Mobile Security Teams, checked baggage screening, on-board screening, security cameras and investments in state-of-the-art security technology. Passengers may also be randomly selected to show identification aboard trains, even after they've shown identification earlier when obtaining their tickets.

Please be advised that randomly selected passengers and their baggage, handbags, backpacks, or other personal items may be screened or inspected. The inspection will be completed as quickly as possible -- usually less than a minute -- in a manner designed to respect passengers' privacy as much as possible. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.
So when we buy a ticket, are we signing away our Constitutional rights? We're basically saying that we understand the rules and regulations, and part of that is random searches by police both in the stations and aboard trains. I didn't see all that till my husband and I were just sitting here talking about this.
 
I just rode the CZ through Omaha a few nights ago.... I'm sure glad this didn't happen to me!

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what I would do... I would be very very nervous and probably shaking and stuttering.... Especially if awaken in the middle of the night. I know that I wouldnt open my curtain without getting dressed first, and then I'm not sure if I would open my door unless being ordered to do so by law.

I wonder what would happen if you simply did not respond? The door is locked from the inside and someone could be using earplugs on the train and not hear... Would they bust down the door?

Hopefully I am lucky enough to never have to decide what to do.... But I don't like hearing that police can do this. I would be fine with Dogs sniffing around the car... I trust dogs.... But people just randomly wanting to search my bags because of how I booked my tickets? That is not right and it needs to be made clear to Amtrak management that this is not good.
 
Okay, I just pulled out the timetable book and found the following, starting with the third paragraph under Security:

Amtrak has in place a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures aimed at improving passenger rail security, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis. These include uniformed police officers and K-9 units in stations and on trains, Mobile Security Teams, checked baggage screening, on-board screening, security cameras and investments in state-of-the-art security technology. Passengers may also be randomly selected to show identification aboard trains, even after they've shown identification earlier when obtaining their tickets.

Please be advised that randomly selected passengers and their baggage, handbags, backpacks, or other personal items may be screened or inspected. The inspection will be completed as quickly as possible -- usually less than a minute -- in a manner designed to respect passengers' privacy as much as possible. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.
So when we buy a ticket, are we signing away our Constitutional rights? We're basically saying that we understand the rules and regulations, and part of that is random searches by police both in the stations and aboard trains. I didn't see all that till my husband and I were just sitting here talking about this.
It is my understanding that most, if not all, common carriers have pretty much the same rules.
 
So, if random searches are happening on trains they should apply the same on airplanes but they do not. Instead, you're searched before boarding a plane, xrayed and often gropped. Does this mean the same intrusive screening is heading to a train sation near you? I'm sick of this!! We have no rights anymore in this country. So much for the Constitution.
 
So, if random searches are happening on trains they should apply the same on airplanes but they do not. Instead, you're searched before boarding a plane, xrayed and often gropped. Does this mean the same intrusive screening is heading to a train sation near you? I'm sick of this!! We have no rights anymore in this country. So much for the Constitution.
This type of stuff is getting out of control. My non-lawyer advise is just say "No". "No I don't wish to talk to you". "No you may not enter or search my roomette." Don't engage them, just say "no thanks".

The Dallas Police Detectives kill a passenger onboard a train, after they surround him and his wife, and he act out / up to them. Just say "No, I don't want to talk to you."

If they pull you off the train to show you who got the power, and you watch your train leave station with out you. Seek a civil rights attorney out. You may not have a case, but this will never stop into the police dept loses in court, and has to pay out to someone.

This soft interview by a non-uniformed police officer was given to the PD by the courts and only the courts will take it away. The police have modified the courts "soft interview" into a harsh tactic were you are been challenge by the officer. Sometimes half asleep, by shouting at you so you are surprised and will answer there questions.

Just say "No, I don't want to talk to you" when they pull out there ID or bring in a uniformed officer they you got another issue.

The right to refused to talk to a person who has not identify themself as a police office is something we do all the time.

The right to refuse a police officer to search your roomette is not a justification for a search warrant.

Just say "No" if the police take it up a notch don't fight back, just get a attorney.
 
I beleive in standing up for myself and my rights, and also in cooperating with Police Officers, but I find the thought of seeing the train pull out of Wesst Podunk Arkansas to be scary and upsetting.
 
To be clear, the Omaha police department is not conducting these searches. This is a special drug unit of the Nebraska State Patrol. Besides the Zephyr, they are also known for staking out local truck stops and the bus station. There are reports of some pretty sketchy tactics by this particular unit. Try this Google Search and read some of the stories.

I'm sure they want to catch the bad guys, but there is an interesting secondary motive. Drug couriers not only carry drugs, they often carry a lot of cash. If the person or persons are found or plead guilty, the arresting jurisdiction gets to keep the cash. These searches can be a profitable venture for the involved police department.
 
The disruption would **** me off, as does airport screening, but I would not objection and disrupt my trip, as I carry nothing to worry about. (except I forgot an 18 oz. bottle of vitamin water that held me up last week at DIA screening :blush: )
 
I've thought about this a long time. I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd probably resist complying with this checkpoint charlie nonsense, but what sort of "refund" would you get on an AGR award and how would you reach your destination or get back home in a reasonable time frame and at a reasonable cost? The increasing difficulty of exercising our rights through non-compliance and our lack of practical solutions that won't abruptly end our trip is probably not an accident. In the end I'm not sure that we actually have all the rights we've been reading about since elementary school. Apparently many of the rights we take for granted only exist in theory and not in reality, at least in a practical sense.

Nevertheless a citizen who never dares to step out of line may cease to even notice the chains that bind him. Making a point of expressing how this invasion of privacy is not acceptable to you and goes against what you believe America stands for is absolutely your right. If everyone made a point of resisting maybe this sort of thing would become less and less common. On the other hand, as already mentioned, there remains an strong but artificial incentive to keep violating our privacy so long as it results in substantial monetary or political gains for those who influence or conduct the invasions. There is nothing inherently illegal with carrying currency, but if you're caught with no more cash than would be necessary to buy a sleeper compartment or a last minute flight home you could end up losing all of your money until such time as you can prove in court that it came from a legitimate source. And that might not be as quick and easy as you would think it is.

In the end I have to say that these sorts of invasions to our privacy will remain common until such time as we either prevent our various security forces from benefiting from confiscated possessions and/or we vastly restrict what can be confiscated in the first place. In other words I think we need to seriously reform our current confiscation laws and consider legalizing the creation and distribution of more controlled substances to reduce their appeal to drug cartels and police forces alike. In an ideal world we would not suffer at the hands of the police and the drug cartels simply by trying to restrict drug creation and use, but since we do not live in an ideal world I'm convinced that we could probably do much better by finally trying some new solutions to a cultural problem that has been routinely failing us since the early 1900's. Until we change this cycle of failure we'll continue to be at the mercy of degrading treatment by police and vicious life-threatening treatment by drug cartels, both of which have found a way to benefit monetarily from the illicit drug trade and have little interest in seeing it legalized and regulated.
 
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In other words I think we need to seriously consider reforming our current confiscation laws and legalizing the creation and distribution of more controlled substances. In an ideal world we would not suffer at the hands of the police and the drug cartels, but since we do no live in an ideal world I'm convinced that we could probably do much better by finally trying some "new" solutions to a cultural problem that has been failing us since the early 1900's.
Washington (state) and Colorado just took the first steps towards this in the last election. We'll see what comes of it.
 
the Washington state initiative is interesting, but solves nothing in federal law or an interstate EB train.
 
Whats the issue here? No issue at all. Your rights are clearly spelled out in our Constitution. Amtrak would have a lengthy court case on there hands it I was thrown off the train If I refused a search without reasonable cause or a warrent!
 
Ah, but do you have rights on the train, that's the question. You have a right to travel by train or not, but the question remains, do you sign away your right against searches when you purchase your ticket and board the train? You sign off that uniformed police and k-9 units may board the train and search at random, and if you fail to consent you will be refused carriage and given a refund (I'm assuming of the value of the remainder of the trip). I suppose if you pay in points you get nothing back?

At this point, since I'd be traveling alone, and in a sleeper (on points), I'd probably just consent, as I have nothing to hide as long as I can be present and watch as the search is underway. It's better than watching my train depart with my roomette, and probably having to go coach in a day or two (as all the sleepers would be sold out by that time).

Editted to add: Our rights are spelled out, but they can also be limited. We have the right to bear arms, but not in the post office. Heck, I had a bottle of Coke at the Richmond, VA court house and the security had me pitch it outside -- I wasn't allowed to take it in even though I didn't want to drink it inside (it was hot out and I had it in my purse to drink later). So there are some limitations depending upon where we are and what we're wanting to do.
 
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Whats the issue here? No issue at all. Your rights are clearly spelled out in our Constitution. Amtrak would have a lengthy court case on there hands it I was thrown off the train If I refused a search without reasonable cause or a warrent!
Actually if the local police haul you off the train, your case would be with them; not Amtrak. Amtrak can't stop the police from taking you off the train because you decided not to comply with the officer.
 
I am not sure what the basic rights are. Does a roomette have the same status as your home, which may not be searched without a warrant?
 
I am not sure what the basic rights are. Does a roomette have the same status as your home, which may not be searched without a warrant?
NO
Well in that case I guess I'd submit to questions and a very non-invasive search of belongings, if it meant that to refuse I would be removed from the train and delayed.

First thing I would do would be ask what would be the immediate consequences of refusing.
 
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