Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

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Access road where something could have been dumped on the track.
With the 80 mph overspeed into the curve effectively confirmed by the NTSB, the train would have derailed regardless. I am only speculating, but a good guess is the objects hit actually refer to after the train left the tracks. Also curious is that the train had apparently not slowed at all from track speed; Even heading into the curve at 40-50 mph might well have avoided anything happening.

What strikes me about this derailment is the number of injuries. In a many major passenger train wrecks, there are often a relative handful of fatalities (even one is too many, of course), a much larger number of injured, but generally many persons who walk away unhurt. Here, that last group seems to be missing. Again just speculation, but likely with a light passenger load most everyone just happened to be in the worst affected cars.

One pertinent question I haven't seen addressed is how similar Talgo trainsets have fared in derailments in Europe.
 
What strikes me about this derailment is the number of injuries. In a many major passenger train wrecks, there are often a relative handful of fatalities (even one is too many, of course), a much larger number of injured, but generally many persons who walk away unhurt. Here, that last group seems to be missing. Again just speculation, but likely with a light passenger load most everyone just happened to be in the worst affected cars.
In this case much of the train went off the bridge and onto the highway below, including at least one car that landed upside-down. That's going to cause many more injuries than stopping upright or even going down an embankment.
 
Access road where something could have been dumped on the track.
With the 80 mph overspeed into the curve effectively confirmed by the NTSB, the train would have derailed regardless. I am only speculating, but a good guess is the objects hit actually refer to after the train left the tracks. Also curious is that the train had apparently not slowed at all from track speed; Even heading into the curve at 40-50 mph might well have avoided anything happening.

What strikes me about this derailment is the number of injuries. In a many major passenger train wrecks, there are often a relative handful of fatalities (even one is too many, of course), a much larger number of injured, but generally many persons who walk away unhurt. Here, that last group seems to be missing. Again just speculation, but likely with a light passenger load most everyone just happened to be in the worst affected cars.

One pertinent question I haven't seen addressed is how similar Talgo trainsets have fared in derailments in Europe.
I will go ahead and ask the question, if this had been a heavier Superliner consist, how would it fared?
 
Let's take a moment to reflect on the memory of our two friends from the rail advocacy community that we lost in the accident. RIP Jim And Zach. Let's not forget them in this tragedy.
Two of the three fatalities were rail advocates? Crazy. Where were they seated?

Has anyone confirmed the status of the locomotive engineer? Who was contacting dispatch? The conductor or the engineer?
 
Which Tacoma station is currently being used? The Tacoma Dome Station would require a backup move to be accessed from the Point Defiance Line.

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From the Amtrak.com website as of 9:30am today (12/19/17):

Service Disruption South of SeattleAmtrak Cascades services impacted

7:00 p.m. PT

Amtrak Cascades Train 501, operating from Seattle and Portland, derailed south of Tacoma, Wash. There were approximately 80 passengers and five crew members on board.

Service from Seattle to points north and east is continuing to operate. Amtrak Cascades Trains 504 and 509 are cancelled. 502 will be cancelled on Tuesday, Dec. 19. No alternate transportation will be available.

Trains will be operating out of the original Tacoma Station located at 1001 Puyallup Avenue, Tacoma, WA 98421.
 
Let's take a moment to reflect on the memory of our two friends from the rail advocacy community that we lost in the accident. RIP Jim And Zach. Let's not forget them in this tragedy.
Two of the three fatalities were rail advocates? Crazy. Where were they seated?
Has anyone confirmed the status of the locomotive engineer? Who was contacting dispatch? The conductor or the engineer?
Conductor, LSA are confirmed among the living. I'm also fairly positive on the engineer as well.

Yes two of three were rail advocates Jim if I remember correct was the head of All Aboard Washington.
 
well if it had been a superliner consist that had a capacity about the same as a talgo set, then it might have been roughly the same weight because superliner cars, which are much heavier, do have a higher capacity, five superliners can have the same or more capacity as a talgo set if you have mostly coaches, and five superliners, maybe 500 tons(?), is probably about the same as a full talgo set, though with half the brakes. The other thing is superliners have a center of gravity halfway to the moon, and would all have easily flipped over, vs the talgo set, with a center of gravity a mile below in comparison to a Superliner.

*edit, replying to frequentflyer's question about if it had been a superliner consist, didn't quote properly I suspect.
 
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One thing that keeps being repeated is that this was the first day Amtrak used this route. How long as Sounder been using this route? Not like seeing trains on this route was BRAND new...
 
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RIP to the victims & condolences to everyone affected by this. This brings back memories of the Philadelphia incident. I really hope that this tragedy leads to improvements that will keep folks safe in the future.
 
Im not sure where you are getting your numbers from. The Talgo sets hold 250, the Superliners 75, so you need 4 to match it, 3 would come close. Furthermore, the Superliners COG, while certainly higher than a Talgo, is actually slightly lower than a Amfleet or Horizon because the lower level is sunk relative to a single level. Calling the COG halfway to the moon is something more than hyperbole.

That being said, I do think the Talgos are actually lighter than 4 Superliners, but this is just an impression.

The weird thing about this crash is not that the train derailed; its where it derailed. The force overload happened too quickly. The locomotive should have entered the curve too fast, leaned a bit too far, and then overcome its wheel flange, leaving the track at an angle and leaning somewhat out of the curve, pulling cars with it. The effect would be even more pronounced if the brakes were applied at some point, but it should have happened with out braking force, too.

That is not what happened. What appears to have happened is the locomotive left the track almost immediately tangential to the curve, as if its wheels never evenbriefly followed the curve. 80 is nowhere near fast enough for that. The locomotive appears to have gone straight, dead arrow straight, right off of the track. It didnt appear to barrel roll. A few cars tried to follow it, but at some point the rest of the cars seem to follow the curve.

The physics before me do not make sense without some kind of external actor or equipment malfunction causing bizarre attitude prior to or upon the train entering that curve.
 
The talk of the day is about PTC...

But isnt there an issue with the speed signs used by the railroad? If the engineer didn't see them, that indicates they're too small, or badly placed, or both. Same in Philadelphia.

When a highway goes from 75mph to 30mph, it is signed to hell and back. Maybe the railroads should do a better job with their signage?

Also, it makes no sense that if youre going to spend so much money redoing a track for passenger, you'd leave a 30mph bridge in 79mph territory, when the topology clearly allows for a direct route.
 
The talk of the day is about PTC...

But isnt there an issue with the speed signs used by the railroad? If the engineer didn't see them, that indicates they're too small, or badly placed, or both. Same in Philadelphia.

When a highway goes from 75mph to 30mph, it is signed to hell and back. Maybe the railroads should do a better job with their signage?

Also, it makes no sense that if youre going to spend so much money redoing a track for passenger, you'd leave a 30mph bridge in 79mph territory, when the topology clearly allows for a direct route.
Critical difference is that engineers are required to be qualified on a given territory. This isn't like you or me driving an unfamiliar road and missing a sign; Railroad personnel would already be well aware of the upcoming speed restriction.
 
Back in February of 1980 two BN rear locomotives broke loose from a train in the Cascade tunnel and became runaways westbound. They were determined to be traveling over 100 MPH between switches at Scenic. Just past west Scenic they as entered a 10 degree left hand curve they hurled off the tracks and straight down the mountain stopping just short of Highway 2.

There was no track damage from this event.
 
Also, it makes no sense that if youre going to spend so much money redoing a track for passenger, you'd leave a 30mph bridge in 79mph territory, when the topology clearly allows for a direct route.
Shortly after the bridge, and the S curve the bridge is part of. There is a merge with another main line track. Its been report the switch is a lower speed switch. So the train traveling by this location needs to be going slow and prepare to stop at the junction anyway. If additional funds were available then the whole S curve and junction could be upgraded to 60 mph speeds. The project did not do so, lack of need, space, and or cost.
 
The weird thing about this crash is not that the train derailed; its where it derailed. The force overload happened too quickly. The locomotive should have entered the curve too fast, leaned a bit too far, and then overcome its wheel flange, leaving the track at an angle and leaning somewhat out of the curve, pulling cars with it. The effect would be even more pronounced if the brakes were applied at some point, but it should have happened with out braking force, too.

That is not what happened. What appears to have happened is the locomotive left the track almost immediately tangential to the curve, as if its wheels never evenbriefly followed the curve. 80 is nowhere near fast enough for that. The locomotive appears to have gone straight, dead arrow straight, right off of the track. It didnt appear to barrel roll. A few cars tried to follow it, but at some point the rest of the cars seem to follow the curve.

The physics before me do not make sense without some kind of external actor or equipment malfunction causing bizarre attitude prior to or upon the train entering that curve.
Along with that is the lack of major track damage. I would have expected the track to be torn up with the force of the lead unit trying to take the curve at too high a speed causing the outer rail to pull out and/or turn over. Instead, probably due to the train having gone into emergency (either by engineer action or it coming apart), the trailing unit was going slow enough and without significant track damage that it apparently stayed on the rails (I’ve yet to see anything saying it’s actually not derailed so I’ll leave open the possibility that it is derailed but in line with the rails). It’s as if the lead unit flew over the rails.

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well if it had been a superliner consist that had a capacity about the same as a talgo set, then it might have been roughly the same weight because superliner cars, which are much heavier, do have a higher capacity, five superliners can have the same or more capacity as a talgo set if you have mostly coaches, and five superliners, maybe 500 tons(?), is probably about the same as a full talgo set, though with half the brakes. The other thing is superliners have a center of gravity halfway to the moon, and would all have easily flipped over, vs the talgo set, with a center of gravity a mile below in comparison to a Superliner.

*edit, replying to frequentflyer's question about if it had been a superliner consist, didn't quote properly I suspect.
A Eagle Superliner consist derailed in Arkansas at speed and stayed upright, it was some time ago. Its an urban myth that the Superliner is top heavy. Trains had a nice detailed article and plans in a 1979 issue. The heavy AC and other equipment is relatively low in comparison to the height of the car. And the car connects to the boogie at axle level. A lot of engineering went into the Superliner to make it not top heavy.

Apparently one of the Cascades trains is using subbing a Superliner consist for some reason, so the question came to mind. And I wander how a heavier car would have fared going into the trees.
 
I'm trying to go back and find it, but there was a graphic that showed that the first 30 MPH speed limit sign was more than a 1/4 mile prior to the curve.
There is a speed limit warning sign more than a mile back from the start of the curve, and a speed limit sign at the beginning of the curve. But all that is more of ralfan interest, since a qualified Engineer should be able to operate a train safely even if one or more of those signs are missing.

The talk of the day is about PTC...

But isnt there an issue with the speed signs used by the railroad? If the engineer didn't see them, that indicates they're too small, or badly placed, or both. Same in Philadelphia.

When a highway goes from 75mph to 30mph, it is signed to hell and back. Maybe the railroads should do a better job with their signage?

Also, it makes no sense that if youre going to spend so much money redoing a track for passenger, you'd leave a 30mph bridge in 79mph territory, when the topology clearly allows for a direct route.
Critical difference is that engineers are required to be qualified on a given territory. This isn't like you or me driving an unfamiliar road and missing a sign; Railroad personnel would already be well aware of the upcoming speed restriction.
Absolutely! As Acela150 I am sure will remind us, like he did after the 188 accident, it is the business of the qualified crew (Engineer and Conductor) to know exactly where the train is and what operating restrictions are active at that point, and moreover what conditions they should prepare for that will apply ahead of them.

With reference to the NEC, it should be noted that the few speed limit signs that you see are really not what reflects the speed limit that is enforced, since there are five different classes of trains on the NEC, each with different set of speed limits. What reflects the speed limit is the section of track, the active signal aspect, the civil speed limit, if any, together with the class of the train.

The in cab signal display indicates the speed limit in force for the specific class of train based on information picked up by the train from the signal in force, track mounted transponders and radio messages from the ACSES system, with a fall back on the classic coded track circuit based cab signaling system.

At the time the 188 accident occurred, that area did not have the ACSES overlay active yet, and the cab signal system was not set up to reflect a speed limit of the curve. This was not unusual back then. Amtrak was then in the process of re-jigging the cab signal system towards reflecting such. That curve was not done yet in that direction mainly because it was believed (incorrectly) that a train could not accelerate to such high speeds by that point. That assumption was true with previous less performant equipment, but the Sprinters' acceleration capabilities changed the rules of the game. But that is all well documented history. Let us please not go through yet another cycle of that discussion here.

The bottom line is, if you are focused on speed limit signs you are mostly barking up the wrong tree and wasting your time and energy. The presence of a little sign is most likely not going to have much effect on the general loss of situational awareness, if that is what is determined to be the cause of this. Remember, there are other possibilities to consider like various possible modes of equipment failure too.
 
Assuming overspeed is confirmed to be the primary catalyst I suppose the root cause could include...

Loss of situational awareness

Medical complication or impairment

Mechanical failure or sabotage

Structural failure or sabotage

Operational failure or sabotage

Are there any obvious options I'm still missing?

My money is on the loss of situational awareness, possibly due to an unexpected/unwanted distraction and/or the relative newness of the route, in conjunction with an unusually brief segment for rapid deceleration.
 
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Cheaper than PTS:

figure_87.jpg
 
The line below is tangent to the track and ends up at about the position of the lead locomotive:

attachicon.gif
Scene 2.jpg

Imagery date per Google Earth is 5/22/17 and appears to be more recent than the one in Post # 196.
The Charger destroyed the signal tower that can be seen on that photo - before the added yellow line.We can see the destroyed tower, then where the loco then glanced to the left a bit off the embankment past the tower and in front of the silver box, in the photo in post # 167.

The Charger took out some trees and angled left a bit down onto I-5.

That all makes it look like the train came off the rails at the very start of the curve.
 
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